When I got the Idea for turntable on my mind, I came in that section and began reading exactly that thread...
And when I read this: Dynamic Comparison of LPs vs CDs - Part 4 — Reviews and News from Audioholics
I got totally convinced...
The reason for my searching is in first place that I am not satisfied by CD's anymore... and maybe I have never been satisfied...
About 6 months ago I found a tape record on audio cassette in my office... It's at least 15 year old record of Julio Iglesias listened many times
The only place where I have cassette player left is in a car... and it sounded and sounds great, so natural, with such real and detailed high range...Before that I have made a research for satisfying my own curiosity about the different formats... I even questioned a friend of mine who is sound engineer about 96/24 and 192/24 formats, about professional 8 track tape recorders and etc...
I even put my nose a little in the national golden fund of records of the national radio here...
And 16 bit 44.1 khz is something very retarded and disabled when compared to 8 track tapes and good vinyls.
And I asked my self if it is worth to put years of reading, DIY-ing, thinking and lots of money into equipment only to listen to a retarded and initially inept format such as the CD!
I don't want those lousy sounds anymore!
From 1000 CD's 100 are good to listen, 50 are really good and 10 are exellent and I buy original records preferably from older issues.I think the prospect of the vinyl playback "beating" your digital source depends on the whole system (turntable, tonearm, cartridge, MC stepup (assuming you go MC) and RIAA preamp. Of those elements my experience is that the cartridge and signal conditioning play the stronger role assuming your turntable and arm are reasonably competent and the arm is compatible with the cartridge. I would expect the SL-1200 to satisfy the reasonably competent standard for the turntable and tonearm. I would take your cartidge budget and invest it in one good cartridge rather than two. In the end my experience is that vinyl can outdo digital, but the source material and your personal tolerance for vinyl's surface noise can override the equipment choices.
Thanks for that! Will the C-85 do it as a preamp for beginning or I should buy a special phono preamp? Again if such is available at reasonable price from a major company (with comparable and clear parameters and etc...) I would go for it.
And I have about 6 listening hours to mediocre turntables such as 150$ second hand Onkyo and 25 year old Unitra which costed 150DM as new and the records were old and used... and it sounded better than a mediocre CD, natural and pleasant.
Which cartridges are compatible with the 1200? Probably I have to check the min-max adjustable height and the weight tolerances as well? Or better which 200$ MM cartridge is good? Should I insist on Audiotechnica? - because their parameters are very good - channel balance is very good...
And I have yet another consideration - I have the CDX-993 and it's price was about 600-800-900$ depending on the market (here we have 10% import duty and 20% VAT), it is produced by Yamaha - a major and renowned electronics company... and the Technics is about the same price, little higher which is normal at least regarding that now nearly 10 years have passed form the 993 discontinuing... and it is again a major brand from a major company - Mitsubishi... - Equal quality equipment from equal companies at equal prices - pretty fair
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I don't have any experience with your C-85, so I would first get a good cartridge & listen to it on your current gear to see how well it sounds. I haven't used an Audio Technica cartridge (my history is Shure V15III, Dynavector 10x3, Dynavector Ruby Karat and currently Denon DL103R...the Denon is very smooth and natural) so I can't help there. If you go low output MC you will likely need a step-up amp or transformer. Once you get the system together do a lot of listening & decide if it's good enough...if not figure out where your money is best spent on upgrades.
Guys, guys, guys! Yesterday I bought it! WoOoOW!
The cartridge is the cheapest Stanton 20 hz to 17 khz and I already degraded the needle :lol:
For pre-amp I use my Behringer VMX-100 mixer, the power amp is vintage SS Pioneer 4xx series from the 70's and the speakers are MJK's Goldwood H-frame with my design OB with Fane 6-100 mid and ribbon tweeter.
Stereo is much better than CD, localisation has height and the picture is stable and so very detailed!
I am most surprised by the low frequencies and the high frequencies... Such true and strong bass with no corrections, eq or whatsoever. And there is so much detail in between? All frequencies are so balanced?
Why the fact that a turntable is so much better than a cd is not part of the common knowledge? And it's better at once and with cheap electronics! *-*
I only have some static electricity discharging through the needle from time to time issue.
Best regards! Photos coming!
The cartridge is the cheapest Stanton 20 hz to 17 khz and I already degraded the needle :lol:
For pre-amp I use my Behringer VMX-100 mixer, the power amp is vintage SS Pioneer 4xx series from the 70's and the speakers are MJK's Goldwood H-frame with my design OB with Fane 6-100 mid and ribbon tweeter.
Stereo is much better than CD, localisation has height and the picture is stable and so very detailed!
I am most surprised by the low frequencies and the high frequencies... Such true and strong bass with no corrections, eq or whatsoever. And there is so much detail in between? All frequencies are so balanced?
Why the fact that a turntable is so much better than a cd is not part of the common knowledge? And it's better at once and with cheap electronics! *-*
I only have some static electricity discharging through the needle from time to time issue.
Best regards! Photos coming!
Just today, out of curiousity I have checked a 24/96 "virgin" Vinyl rip from Hans Zimmer's Inception soundtrack - a CD I know very well. I don't know the source of course, or quality of the turntable used, but it's not listenable. Low volumes of course, the constant clicks, cracks & mechanical sounds that I can't "listen past". High volumes everything starts getting compressed, individual sounds merge and cracking/screetching sounds (not digital clip) - a waste of 1.2 gigabyte. Can someone point me to a good executed vinyl rip so I can compare to redbook? I am in the believe it's not the digital process that's causing some CD's to be "unlistenable" - it's the mastering that's cr*p.
Hello again,
Here are the photos.
I'm very happy!
I have only one new double album of Herbie Hancock, but it sounds really great, it's new release - The Imagine Project, there even is a track of duet between Pink and John Legend and another written by Peter Gabriel... - probably it's luck this to be my first Vinyl because it's really great sounding.
I dug my father's old vinyls and I bought a second hand Deep Purple vinyl and the clicks appear to be from dust and particles... because with the Herbie Hancock I don't get any clicks...
Now I need to know a good method for cleaning of vinyls. There isa vinil cleaning kit at the store here, but it's suspicious to me - the brush isn't a brush, but something hard... - carbon was the latest fashion in vinyl brushes?
Which is the better approach when listening to an old and dirty record? To increase the pressure and the anti-skating or the opposite? Because the tolerance for that cartridge is 0.75 to 1.5 grams.
The middle is 1.125 grams - should I set it there for general use?
The sound is so good with the Behringer and the Pioneer, that I don't feel need to go to our summerhouse and get the Monster Yamaha system I'll listen like this until I begin to find flaws in the sound and then I'll think what to do. Probably with an MX-1000 and C-85 the sound will be even more explosive and refined, but now it's just great...
So, Mission accomplished! A good turntable with good record, cheap cartridge and cheap to crappy electronics easily outperform CD played through a much more sophisticated and expensive system! And on top of that the reference CD system is all the top models of Yamaha of the most renowned series ever.
I'll buy the Imagine Project on CD - just to be sure...
Here are the photos.
I'm very happy!
I have only one new double album of Herbie Hancock, but it sounds really great, it's new release - The Imagine Project, there even is a track of duet between Pink and John Legend and another written by Peter Gabriel... - probably it's luck this to be my first Vinyl because it's really great sounding.
I dug my father's old vinyls and I bought a second hand Deep Purple vinyl and the clicks appear to be from dust and particles... because with the Herbie Hancock I don't get any clicks...
Now I need to know a good method for cleaning of vinyls. There isa vinil cleaning kit at the store here, but it's suspicious to me - the brush isn't a brush, but something hard... - carbon was the latest fashion in vinyl brushes?
Which is the better approach when listening to an old and dirty record? To increase the pressure and the anti-skating or the opposite? Because the tolerance for that cartridge is 0.75 to 1.5 grams.
The middle is 1.125 grams - should I set it there for general use?
The sound is so good with the Behringer and the Pioneer, that I don't feel need to go to our summerhouse and get the Monster Yamaha system
I'll listen like this until I begin to find flaws in the sound and then I'll think what to do. Probably with an MX-1000 and C-85 the sound will be even more explosive and refined, but now it's just great...So, Mission accomplished! A good turntable with good record, cheap cartridge and cheap to crappy electronics easily outperform CD played through a much more sophisticated and expensive system! And on top of that the reference CD system is all the top models of Yamaha of the most renowned series ever.
I'll buy the Imagine Project on CD - just to be sure...
Attachments
I say always keep the stylus and antiskating force in the middle of the range. Dirty records should be cleaned as best as practical before playing, else you'll be cleaning the stylus as well.
For dirty records you most definitely need hygiene. There's a bunch of good methods and devices, from as cheap as a bottle of PVA wood glue to machines costing hundreds of dollars or more. Vacuum machines by Nitty Gritty and VPI are popular - the Keith Monks probably would be popular if it weren't so expensive. And there's a longish thread her on using an ultrasonic cleaning machine for LP's. I rarely clean my stylus because I rarely have to do so.
When you want to upgrade the cartridge, there's the AT440MLa. I just got one, after having the original, out-of-production AT440ML for almost ten years and which still plays fine. I just thought I had to get the new one to hear the difference. Amazon has it for $99, and I highly recommend it. The new one is on my SL-1300. Reviews say the new one is a little less bright than the old one, but playing the same LP, they sound just the same to me.
There may surely cartridges that sound better than the AT440MLa, but I can't afford to listen to one, I'd have to buy it...
Especially with the LP cleaning, records are high-maintenance but there are plenty of people here who feel the results are worth it.
For dirty records you most definitely need hygiene. There's a bunch of good methods and devices, from as cheap as a bottle of PVA wood glue to machines costing hundreds of dollars or more. Vacuum machines by Nitty Gritty and VPI are popular - the Keith Monks probably would be popular if it weren't so expensive. And there's a longish thread her on using an ultrasonic cleaning machine for LP's. I rarely clean my stylus because I rarely have to do so.
When you want to upgrade the cartridge, there's the AT440MLa. I just got one, after having the original, out-of-production AT440ML for almost ten years and which still plays fine. I just thought I had to get the new one to hear the difference. Amazon has it for $99, and I highly recommend it. The new one is on my SL-1300. Reviews say the new one is a little less bright than the old one, but playing the same LP, they sound just the same to me.
There may surely cartridges that sound better than the AT440MLa, but I can't afford to listen to one, I'd have to buy it...
Especially with the LP cleaning, records are high-maintenance but there are plenty of people here who feel the results are worth it.
T101
Now you have your turntable you should spend some time setting it up. Regardless of which turntable you have it will perform better on a non resonant support.
I see that you have your record deck on a wooden table. Does this table sit on a solid floor or a suspended floor?
If you have a suspended floor, then you should try a wall mounted shelf. Make sure that the wall is a solid supporting wall.
If the floor is solid then a dedicated table for the record player is fine. I found that I got best results with a technics SL1200 when I used slabs of stone 75mm thick underneath, supported by a steel frame table.
If you need convincing then firstly find a small table the size of your record player, and use some cheap 450mm paving slabs underneath the deck. I have used 2 paving slabs separated with 5 blobs of Blutak. Support the slabs with 3 coins for a cheap upgrade! This costs very little to try especially when compared to the price of the record deck.
Also I would suggest for serious listening the plastic lid should be removed.
The SL1200 is very responsive to the way it is supported. If you try some different options within your listening room you may be surprised by the results!
Now you have your turntable you should spend some time setting it up. Regardless of which turntable you have it will perform better on a non resonant support.
I see that you have your record deck on a wooden table. Does this table sit on a solid floor or a suspended floor?
If you have a suspended floor, then you should try a wall mounted shelf. Make sure that the wall is a solid supporting wall.
If the floor is solid then a dedicated table for the record player is fine. I found that I got best results with a technics SL1200 when I used slabs of stone 75mm thick underneath, supported by a steel frame table.
If you need convincing then firstly find a small table the size of your record player, and use some cheap 450mm paving slabs underneath the deck. I have used 2 paving slabs separated with 5 blobs of Blutak. Support the slabs with 3 coins for a cheap upgrade! This costs very little to try especially when compared to the price of the record deck.
Also I would suggest for serious listening the plastic lid should be removed.
The SL1200 is very responsive to the way it is supported. If you try some different options within your listening room you may be surprised by the results!
For the money it costs here (ca £480) there is nothing out there that comes close to the SL1200.
Lest we forget Technics designed it NOT to be a DJ deck but to be the second best HiFi deck in their range (the top was the legendary SL1000/SP10). It just happened that DJs took a liking to it 8 years after its introduction and thanks to them it is still being produced.
Lest we forget Technics designed it NOT to be a DJ deck but to be the second best HiFi deck in their range (the top was the legendary SL1000/SP10). It just happened that DJs took a liking to it 8 years after its introduction and thanks to them it is still being produced.
Guys, may i recommend you to go to this forum?
Vinyl Engine | The Home of the Turntable
It's THE forum for discussing LP records and playback gear, and you'll find many answers. As for the OP, i too would recommend the Technics SL-1200.
I would not really recommend the Regas, since they're a bit overpriced IMHO.
The best option is to go for a used unit, but for that, you need to know pretty well what is a good turntable and what isn't, and the potential things that could be broken. It helps if you are a DIY !!
Vinyl Engine | The Home of the Turntable
It's THE forum for discussing LP records and playback gear, and you'll find many answers. As for the OP, i too would recommend the Technics SL-1200.
I would not really recommend the Regas, since they're a bit overpriced IMHO.
The best option is to go for a used unit, but for that, you need to know pretty well what is a good turntable and what isn't, and the potential things that could be broken. It helps if you are a DIY !!
We had a well set up SP10 and a big Denon when i worked hifi in the late 70s. They helped us sell an awful lot of belt drive turntables... and most of them a lot less money than the big DDs.
Because the DDs did NOT sound as good.
dave
Mmmmm....
Had a great Denon DD (DP3500) with an SME3009, got conned into buying a Rega 3, then a systemdek, then an LP12, then a million upgrades (Nirvana, Valhalla, whatever), then a TNT, then blew back to a Rega 2 (far more stable) and now wish I could buy an SL1200 with an interchangeable headshell and a host of different cartridges for different applications. Takes hours to change cartridges on a Rega...
Is the SL 1200 still available new? Word is that Technics has finally pulled the pin...
No doubt about it, a good LP12 with an Ittok and Asak could pull stuff off a groove like nothing else but for 95% of records, 95% of the time an SL1200 and a Denon DL160S (or DL103S: respect) would kick **** and sound good on almost anything almost all the time. None of my other turntables ever did that.
Sorry, it's just the Port (wine) talking...
Had a great Denon DD (DP3500) with an SME3009, got conned into buying a Rega 3, then a systemdek, then an LP12, then a million upgrades (Nirvana, Valhalla, whatever), then a TNT, then blew back to a Rega 2 (far more stable) and now wish I could buy an SL1200 with an interchangeable headshell and a host of different cartridges for different applications. Takes hours to change cartridges on a Rega...
Is the SL 1200 still available new? Word is that Technics has finally pulled the pin...
No doubt about it, a good LP12 with an Ittok and Asak could pull stuff off a groove like nothing else but for 95% of records, 95% of the time an SL1200 and a Denon DL160S (or DL103S: respect) would kick **** and sound good on almost anything almost all the time. None of my other turntables ever did that.
Sorry, it's just the Port (wine) talking...
It was straight up. The premise of the store was honestly. Long term "greed" not short term greed.
dave
Thank you all for the advices! I will follow strictly!
Today I got Vinyl Cleaning Kit consisting of cleaning fluid and a velvet brush.
The turntable will receive a stone base.
Dave, can you tell me why the belt drive tt's are better? Or maybe how better they are or can be? The only thing that comes in mind to me is if the SPL in the room is high, then the belt would inevitably vibrate.
Something common for both systems would be the bearing of the plater. And if there are any vibrations introduced in the reproduction they would be most probably due to the bearing...
Well... I don't know! My SL-1200 sound great with the cheapest cartridge! What more should I expect? I will buy another cartridge holder (the detachable end of the arm) and will install a high end cartridge on it and that would be all I need... (I'm not sure if I need it at all but everybody say that there would be a difference) Why bother with a belt drive when a direct drive performs better than one of the most renowned Yamaha CD players? And apart from having 993, I have listened and compared CDX-1100 and others from the 10xx series - they all are no match to the turntable...
Today I got Vinyl Cleaning Kit consisting of cleaning fluid and a velvet brush.
The turntable will receive a stone base.
Dave, can you tell me why the belt drive tt's are better? Or maybe how better they are or can be? The only thing that comes in mind to me is if the SPL in the room is high, then the belt would inevitably vibrate.
Something common for both systems would be the bearing of the plater. And if there are any vibrations introduced in the reproduction they would be most probably due to the bearing...
Well... I don't know! My SL-1200 sound great with the cheapest cartridge! What more should I expect? I will buy another cartridge holder (the detachable end of the arm) and will install a high end cartridge on it and that would be all I need... (I'm not sure if I need it at all but everybody say that there would be a difference) Why bother with a belt drive when a direct drive performs better than one of the most renowned Yamaha CD players? And apart from having 993, I have listened and compared CDX-1100 and others from the 10xx series - they all are no match to the turntable...
T101,
Excellent questions on DD vs Belt - I think the honest perspective is that either system can produce excellent results, but executing a belt drive system that performs well is more complicated than with DD. Incidentally 30+ years later your DD will still be performing as it did when new with only a few drops of oil on the spindle periodically. A 30 year old belt drive table will have required considerably more time & cost in maintenance & upkeep. Enjoy your new purchase!
Excellent questions on DD vs Belt - I think the honest perspective is that either system can produce excellent results, but executing a belt drive system that performs well is more complicated than with DD. Incidentally 30+ years later your DD will still be performing as it did when new with only a few drops of oil on the spindle periodically. A 30 year old belt drive table will have required considerably more time & cost in maintenance & upkeep. Enjoy your new purchase!
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