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Old 10th December 2010, 03:43 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T101 View Post
Dave, can you tell me why the belt drive tt's are better?
Execution counts, but belt-drives have the HUGE advantage of not having the motor directly connected to the platter/record.

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Old 10th December 2010, 05:37 PM   #42
T101 is offline T101  Bulgaria
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First I must tell you that I'm here for pleasure, to learn and if there is such possibility it to be usable and valuable to give some of my miserable knowledge to someone.

Second that I must tell you is that my conversational English in aspect of normal friendly talk between people is somehow retarded... I am a great fan of you, MJK and all other power members here and i wouldn't even try to argue with you! If it sounds like I'm questioning you or as if I'm arguing - know that it isn't so!

It is obvious that the monster turn table systems are all using a belt drive system, so probably the last 1 or 5% bit of quality and realism can be achieved with a belt drive.
But there must be some scientific grounds for that?

Let's try like that:
Is it true that belt drive has advantage only if it's plater is heavy enough?
Reason for question:
In order a belt drive to beat DD with only moving part the plater, it should beat the 0.01% to 0.035% possible speed deviation.
Effect of the heavy plater:
It acts like a flywheel so the belt only adds the torque lost to friction with the stylos, the bearing and the air. The bigger the flywheel mass the bigger is the proportion between it's stored to lost torque. And the bigger is it's resistance to belt fluctuations.
So the result would be that the plater is acting as self propelled rather than driven - a natural effect of that is the stable speed.

Is this reasoning a valid one?

But my point is that if we get two turntables wit equal low mass platers - say 2 kilograms the DD would be preferable over belt drive, because at that low mass the resistance of the stylos would be transferred and transformed directly into belt tension... But this would be system with spring and varying weight and no damper! The weight (friction transformed into tension force) is not one and the same and additionally the spring (belt elasticity) is not linear. So we would get oscillations at certain frequencies...

Most DD systems are made with a kind of pacemaker which makes them naturally stable... The next inductance in the motor stator is activated not only based on time, but based on a trigger so the motor can work with increased torque but without increasing it's speed.
If deviation in the speed is detected this is not cured by throttling the engine, but rather by increasing the current fed to the inductances without increasing the pace. It's the same like driving on a level road in 4th gear at 50 mph and doing the same on a steep road - the engine PRM are the same, only the throttle position is different.

And if there are three triggers and three sensors then you get the speed measured 9 times per revolution so the controls can increase and decrease the torque 9 times per revolution and roughly 18 times per second.

With a belt drive you have a transmission with certain elasticity - and thus a two way lag - the belt drive must rely on heavier plater and statistics accumulation - it's controls ought to gather enough date in order to decide that there is a certain tendency for advance or retard.

See attached principle drawing. - it explains why the controls are not based on permanent corrections but rather on a constant pace... Even with the highest speeds of reaction if the system was naturally unstable the speed would oscillate all the time at random. And then you would need a read ahead buffer which is aware of the current speed in order to reproduce a speed corrected sound... but that would corrupt the whole idea of turntable...

What an interesting thought I had

So my conclusion is that there is a very great probability that a belt drive is better than direct drive in the end as an absolute answer. But BD is only better only with a considerably heavy plater. And let's not forget that a BD has much more moving parts than a DD, so everything must be really much more accurate and expensive... For instance the motor has to have balanced rotor otherwise it would induce vibrations in the belt and even it they never reach the stylus they will for sure make the friction in the motor spool higher...
So for a reasonable price the better choice is DD.... for me at least.


And apart of the above off-topic I would be happy to know some tricks for cleaning of dirty record, because I have plenty of them :lol:
My cleaning kit is Stanton - probably the most ordinary one and it seems that it's velvet brush doesn't absorb enough dust because after a couple of turns on the initial dry brushing it cleans the record, but the dust is gathered on a line on the record instead on the brush :lol: and I have to blow it off :lol: and the cleaning solution smells like soap water to me...
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Last edited by T101; 10th December 2010 at 05:42 PM.
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Old 10th December 2010, 06:21 PM   #43
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There are many schools of thought wrt belt-drive tables. Low mass, high mass platters, both have their pluses & minuses, belts can be stretchy or not. Execution is important.

Direct drives have the motor directly attached to the record... that is a VERY serious negative. And any speed stability scheme is subject to hunt & peck (same is true of belt-drives with the same kind of motor controllers)... it all comes down to execution.

In the end you have to listen to it and choose your compromises. And to my ear, you can get a better sounding belt-drive for less. A belt drive is certainly a whole lot simplier.

Just yesterday, a friend brought over a CD he had burned... he commented that it sounded kinda flat & uninvolving. I said, it sorta sounds like a typical DD. Turns out it was a digital capture using a big Pioneer DD.

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Old 10th December 2010, 06:41 PM   #44
T101 is offline T101  Bulgaria
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Come on! You're obsessed!

There must be a reason.

I might have a TT from less than a week, but for sure the sound is not flat. Much more holographic than CD.

Maybe DVD Audio comes close, but not quite. With a friend we listened to DVD-a version of This Is It when it was released when Michael Jackson died, not my kind of music, but the second best after my TT as SQ, stage and imaging for sure. Speakers were Fostex 12x in horns.
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Old 10th December 2010, 07:04 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T101 View Post
Come on! You're obsessed!

There must be a reason.
How many times do i have to answer that question?

In a belt-drive, platter/bearing are separate from the motor. In a DD the motor is directly connected to the platter/bearing. Consider how small the squiggles on a record are and how even a tiny amount of motor vibration can completely bury the lowest level information on a record.

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Old 10th December 2010, 07:40 PM   #46
benb is offline benb  United States
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Originally Posted by planet10 View Post
How many times do i have to answer that question?

In a belt-drive, platter/bearing are separate from the motor. In a DD the motor is directly connected to the platter/bearing. Consider how small the squiggles on a record are and how even a tiny amount of motor vibration can completely bury the lowest level information on a record.

dave
Can you demonstrate this by measuring the noise and rumble from a few DD TT's and compare them to some BD TT's? It appears you're saying a DD TT inherently creates much more noise, and also implying that a DD TT's motor generates the same amount of noise as does a BD TT's motor. I'd like to see the evidence.
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Old 10th December 2010, 07:56 PM   #47
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Ditto...or maybe it's one of those mysteriously unquantifiable aspects of audio that are faith-based?
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Old 10th December 2010, 07:58 PM   #48
T101 is offline T101  Bulgaria
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I'd like too, but first would like to know some DIY tricks about cleaning of records.

And I can't imagine what might be the difference when in the Technics for instance the only moving part is the plater itself as it is integrated with the motor rotor (thy magnet is just bolted to it) - so the same ad BD - only one bearing and a shaft.

Think the trick must be elsewhere. Probably the way the two systems handle resistance from the sylus - the lever through which the torque is acting is longer in DD's - so this equals an overdrive gear, and in BD not only the pulley radius is smaller (shorter lever), but further the gear is lowering=more torque - better dealing with hill climbing and more controlled descent (guess who has an old Jeep with AMC straight six )

p.s. why everyone in the speaker sections is so scientific and why the same people in the source sections are showing signs of superstition?
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Old 10th December 2010, 08:05 PM   #49
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You guys want evidence go dig it up. 1st look up how big the features on an LP are so you have a reference.

Me, i've heard the comparisons literally thousands of times. I don't need any convincing.

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Old 10th December 2010, 08:15 PM   #50
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T101,

There is a lot of good material on cleaning at Vinyl Engine. First issue is the cleaning solution...you can spend a fortune for commercial stuff but most recommend a mix of distilled water & isopropyl alcohol, with some debate over the addition of a small amount of surfactant like a mild detergent. For the first cleaning of grungy records I find it works best to rig up a trough a little deeper than 6" (the distance from record edge to center hole) fill to about 3.5" (90 mm) deep. place a 1/4" (6.3 mm) shaft through the center hole & submerge the album on edge in the solution allowing it to soak a while then slowly rotate to the next section while brushing back solution to keep label dry. Once they are clean something simple like a Discwaher brush with same solution works fine for pre-play cleaning.
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