25 years or so ago I had similar experience....the TD124 was, frankly, a PITA....always something needed attention and even when at its best, not as good a midrange (or treble) as a decent SP10 in a decent stock plinth. The 301 is also better provided the obvious work has been done. I had several between mid 60s through memory is frail on whether the grease or the oil version is better. Truth to tell I suspect that the rest of the various systems of that time (Radford, Leak etc ending with Counterpoint and Moscode ) were capable of adequate resolution to make such a choice accurate - or even possible!
I've found a properly fettled TD-124 to be extremely competitive with the 301, but it is work to keep it running well, belt needs to be cleaned regularly, and the motor at best has an uneasy alliance with current mains voltage.
I should note that later E50s have revised windings to reduce heating, which coincidentally also boosts the motor torque slightly. There are three winding sets I have encountered in the field, (confirmed elsewhere) and I have two if not all three of the variations. I would have to check the oldest motor which is still in the scrapped chassis it arrived with, to know if it is the earliest or intermediate version. Not surprisingly the one that is the biggest headache is the newest one, and clearly for that one lower voltage is a must, for the older one in the mid 45K serial # range it runs acceptably quiet and on speed with 117V mains at least with a new idler pulley - which brings me to another point.. lol
I installed a Mirko idler last night on the older table and it quieted down considerably, on the speed thing I gave up and set the magnet clearance back to about 1mm. The QC on the Mirko one I have is excellent and far truer than the originals I own.
Old idlers are suspect, of the three I own two tick noticeably but neither have a visible or feelable (is that a word?
) defect, but you can hear it. I will try new bushings, but I suspect it is more likely hardening or some other defect in the tire. The QC of the molding on these parts was quite random, and the tires were trued up by grinding in a fixture so it is not unusual to see one with big offsets from center even though the tire runs true, and as a result they seem to make noise probably due to some imbalance.
I am not at all sold on the new metal idlers with O-rings that have appeared on eBay lately, this just seems an excellent way to improve transmission of noise from the drive train through the idler to the platter. YMMV..
Papst motor is here, and now comes the work of getting a 3 phase drive together to run it..
I should note that later E50s have revised windings to reduce heating, which coincidentally also boosts the motor torque slightly. There are three winding sets I have encountered in the field, (confirmed elsewhere) and I have two if not all three of the variations. I would have to check the oldest motor which is still in the scrapped chassis it arrived with, to know if it is the earliest or intermediate version. Not surprisingly the one that is the biggest headache is the newest one, and clearly for that one lower voltage is a must, for the older one in the mid 45K serial # range it runs acceptably quiet and on speed with 117V mains at least with a new idler pulley - which brings me to another point.. lol
I installed a Mirko idler last night on the older table and it quieted down considerably, on the speed thing I gave up and set the magnet clearance back to about 1mm. The QC on the Mirko one I have is excellent and far truer than the originals I own.
Old idlers are suspect, of the three I own two tick noticeably but neither have a visible or feelable (is that a word?
) defect, but you can hear it. I will try new bushings, but I suspect it is more likely hardening or some other defect in the tire. The QC of the molding on these parts was quite random, and the tires were trued up by grinding in a fixture so it is not unusual to see one with big offsets from center even though the tire runs true, and as a result they seem to make noise probably due to some imbalance.I am not at all sold on the new metal idlers with O-rings that have appeared on eBay lately, this just seems an excellent way to improve transmission of noise from the drive train through the idler to the platter. YMMV..
Papst motor is here, and now comes the work of getting a 3 phase drive together to run it..
Directdriver thanks for your input on the SP10, this is the impression I have of it as well, and I have refused several in the past for this reason. I have the 401 to play with, and frankly the TD-124 when working well is pretty amazing, and mine has been pretty good over the past few years. I'm looking now to push it a bit further, hence the whining..
re: all whining taken into consideration
I'm with you on how much care and feeding we tend to put into these little beasts. Yet, I've got #2729 over here that has been happily spinning records since ~ 2008. And it hasn't required any significant maintenance in years.
Today it gets up to speed from cold within 15 or 20 seconds. After that I can turn it off and back on throughout the day, sometimes with hours between sessions, and it gets up to speed right now. Less than a rev.
I think part of the complaint is within ourselves and our predisposition toward mechanical perfection. Having seen a direct drive or two, we compare technologies that came later to the tech that preceded. At some point the owner needs to get comfortable with the idea that what really counts is how the thing sounds rather than allowing ourselves to become an obsessive strobe watcher. (the path to unhappiness)
re: voltage requirements.
We know there was a winding revision with the E50 sometime late in the production live of the mk 1. And that the mk2 certainly got the revised E50. At this point it might be useful to understand just what the difference was. that may be why I'm seeing a different voltage requirement (with #2729) than you see with your mk2.
For myself, I tend to take a break from one of my turntables and listen to another for a few days, or weeks. The SP10 mk2 makes one heck of a contrast. In some ways the SP10 is amazing in its ability to extract detail and at the same time reproduce a sense of musical flow. But I think that it will behave like a chameleon with regard to arms and cartridges. For instance, a high quality but laid back sounding MC may tend to emphasise the analytical nature of the SP10, while a forward sounding MC with quick transients may tend to really sing on the SP10. Speculation based on recent experiences.
And I've got a modified TD150 that I think makes a pleasant contrast to the other two. this TD150 is equipped with an Infinity Black Widow/ ADC XLM II improved, modified suspension and custom plinth. In its own way it sings a pleasant song. If I didn't know any other turntables I'd like this one quite a lot.
And so it goes.
fwiw. A change of perspective sometimes helps to continue ones appreciation of a thing.
-Steve
I'm with you on how much care and feeding we tend to put into these little beasts. Yet, I've got #2729 over here that has been happily spinning records since ~ 2008. And it hasn't required any significant maintenance in years.
Today it gets up to speed from cold within 15 or 20 seconds. After that I can turn it off and back on throughout the day, sometimes with hours between sessions, and it gets up to speed right now. Less than a rev.
I think part of the complaint is within ourselves and our predisposition toward mechanical perfection. Having seen a direct drive or two, we compare technologies that came later to the tech that preceded. At some point the owner needs to get comfortable with the idea that what really counts is how the thing sounds rather than allowing ourselves to become an obsessive strobe watcher. (the path to unhappiness)
re: voltage requirements.
We know there was a winding revision with the E50 sometime late in the production live of the mk 1. And that the mk2 certainly got the revised E50. At this point it might be useful to understand just what the difference was. that may be why I'm seeing a different voltage requirement (with #2729) than you see with your mk2.
For myself, I tend to take a break from one of my turntables and listen to another for a few days, or weeks. The SP10 mk2 makes one heck of a contrast. In some ways the SP10 is amazing in its ability to extract detail and at the same time reproduce a sense of musical flow. But I think that it will behave like a chameleon with regard to arms and cartridges. For instance, a high quality but laid back sounding MC may tend to emphasise the analytical nature of the SP10, while a forward sounding MC with quick transients may tend to really sing on the SP10. Speculation based on recent experiences.
And I've got a modified TD150 that I think makes a pleasant contrast to the other two. this TD150 is equipped with an Infinity Black Widow/ ADC XLM II improved, modified suspension and custom plinth. In its own way it sings a pleasant song. If I didn't know any other turntables I'd like this one quite a lot.
And so it goes.
fwiw. A change of perspective sometimes helps to continue ones appreciation of a thing.
-Steve
I totally agree with you. It's all about perspective. Sometimes I can be obsessive and sometimes I just want to kick back and listen to some tunes. I'm called "directdriver" but I'm really not against other drive systems but DD genre tends to get a bad rep so I just use that in jest. That's why never take this hobby too seriously. It's about fun, not to raise blood pressure!
Directdriver thanks for your input on the SP10, this is the impression I have of it as well, and I have refused several in the past for this reason. I have the 401 to play with, and frankly the TD-124 when working well is pretty amazing, and mine has been pretty good over the past few years. I'm looking now to push it a bit further, hence the whining..
Kevin, it took me a long time to admit that to myself. I was one of the earliest champions of the SP10Mk2 and most of my audiophile friends made fun of me, for years! And they always said "when are you gonna get a REAL turntable?" meaning a belt drive table. Even a dealer at a retail shop heard of my table and immediately asked if I wanted to "upgrade" it and gave me a lecture about how bad DD tables are. I heard them all. Although I have moved on from that model but I never gave up on the DD genre. What's funny and ironic is that now in recent years, the SP10 is getting a revival due to all that plinth making in the DIY community. Who's laughing now?! To be honest, a new plinth is not gonna transform the sound of a DD tables, sorry. For me, it starts with the right kind of motor but that's a different topic...
The friend who used the 301 that I mentioned earlier actually prefers the 401 and decided to sell his 301 and kept the 401 to this day. I heard it and I like it and think it's quieter than the 301 but the vintage fetishists probably dispute that. I look forward to reading your experience with it.
A little whining is healthy.
The older table is now much quieter and running happily on 118V, the 124/II brake is quite unhappy once the table is fully warmed up, backing the brake off and dropping the voltage significantly results in much quieter operation.. In both cases the speed is stable quickly..
I think part of the problem is I am hosting an audio fest on Saturday and I want everything to work without a hitch, but it all seems determined not to, despite months of really good behavior while I was ill.. It's exacting its revenge.. lol
I guess I should not complain too much, everyone who has heard either of these tables has had positive comments, including a number of digerati who were scratching their heads in puzzlement afterwards.
To Steve's comments I am a bit of a perfectionist, and the odd noises have reached the point of bothering me. Open bottomed slate plinths are a part of the problem.. I should probably put some lambs wool matting under them or something. lol
The 401 should be interesting and is quite different in implementation. It's in good shape but needs a plinth and some other minor work.
I think part of the problem is I am hosting an audio fest on Saturday and I want everything to work without a hitch, but it all seems determined not to, despite months of really good behavior while I was ill.. It's exacting its revenge.. lol
I guess I should not complain too much, everyone who has heard either of these tables has had positive comments, including a number of digerati who were scratching their heads in puzzlement afterwards.
To Steve's comments I am a bit of a perfectionist, and the odd noises have reached the point of bothering me. Open bottomed slate plinths are a part of the problem.. I should probably put some lambs wool matting under them or something. lol
The 401 should be interesting and is quite different in implementation. It's in good shape but needs a plinth and some other minor work.
Hi Kevin
I never heard the word digerati before. I had to look it up. I think it is quite funny and I think I will adopt it.
Sincerely,
Ralf
I never heard the word digerati before. I had to look it up. I think it is quite funny and I think I will adopt it.
Sincerely,
Ralf
I use the term digerati to connote those who are unabashed enthusiasts of digital audio/technology, and who have traditionally downplayed the possibility of analog sound reproduction. I was very vaguely aware of the more accepted meaning of the word, and it is a very near miss or maybe not at all to the people I was referring to. (The bits is bits crowd fundamentally..) I knew the term was not original to me, but perhaps this particular connotation is.. I was not aware of the other meanings of the word until quite recently. (Mine was intended as a sly reference to the original meaning behind illuminati)
I was not aware of the other meanings of the word until quite recently. (Mine was intended as a sly reference to the original meaning behind illuminati)The 401 should be interesting and is quite different in implementation. It's in good shape but needs a plinth and some other minor work.[/QUOTE]
The drivetrain from the 301 and 401 are not so complex as the TD124 and restauration very straight forward the idler bearing needs attention !
Motor renovation as TD124 mostly without the need to replace the bearings.
Volken
The drivetrain from the 301 and 401 are not so complex as the TD124 and restauration very straight forward the idler bearing needs attention !
Motor renovation as TD124 mostly without the need to replace the bearings.
Volken
Just need to get a plinth and do a little work. I have the 50Hz platter so I am going to cobble up a 50Hz LED based strobe to replace the neon lamp. (Have all the parts - just need to build and install it on the table.)
The motor has been serviced, but the eddy current brake was mangled sometime in the past - I have another motor with a good one that I will swap in.
Just need to get a plinth..
The motor has been serviced, but the eddy current brake was mangled sometime in the past - I have another motor with a good one that I will swap in.
Just need to get a plinth..
Sometimes I regret that I sold my 401. It would have been fun and informative to compare it to the TD124. It just happened that I sold the 401 when I got my new-ish SOTA and that the TD124 came along about a year later. I remember that I was mightily impressed with the 401/Mørch DP6/Ortofon MC7500 even when compared to the the same arm and Cart on the SOTA. But getting the TD124/SMG212/SPU Gold simply just blew me away. Not because it sounded 'better' but because it sounded more 'real'. Now I run it with an SME M2-12R/SPU 85 anniversary in a solid Birch plinth which is just excellent. I would have loved to try out the SME-SPU combination on the 401, but it was not to be.
I did find that the 401 benefited from an electronic speed control and if you are building a 50Hz strobe, I suppose it is just a matter of using a gain clone amp and a step up transformer.....
The real trick, I suppose is to have a variable sinus generator as the 'front end' to eliminate the eddy current brake.
Kevin, have you put the Hanze-HiFi springs in yet? I have found that I really do not give a damn about the belt and the step pulley after I put them in. They are a real improvement.
I did find that the 401 benefited from an electronic speed control and if you are building a 50Hz strobe, I suppose it is just a matter of using a gain clone amp and a step up transformer.....
The real trick, I suppose is to have a variable sinus generator as the 'front end' to eliminate the eddy current brake.
Kevin, have you put the Hanze-HiFi springs in yet? I have found that I really do not give a damn about the belt and the step pulley after I put them in. They are a real improvement.
Hi his047,
I finally installed the Hanze springs tonight, I waited until I was sure I had the manual dexterity required to do it. The process went well. In no sense did it address the issue with the belt and pulley unfortunately.
I had geltec bushings installed previously, and this table was already extraordinarily quiet, although I have been too lazy or sick to be bothered with such niceties as actually measuring the table noise floor.
What I can hear clearly is the very last vestige of motor noise that I could hear on lead in and lead out (I guess around 120Hz) is completely inaudible now.
Might be a hint more detail as well.
Certainly in terms of cost a viable alternative to the geltec bushings and they do seem to provide more isolation between the motor and chassis than the geltec bushings do. This is what I hear anyway..
While I changed only one thing at a time tonight I am having a system problem which probably centers around the RCA UX-226 nos globes I installed a few weeks ago in my line stage - the old Sylvanias ST 26s after countless hours of use were abruptly beyond their prime. I have another pair on the way, but they are not here yet making it hard for me to determine whether other aspects of performance were affected. I just don't find the RCAs resolve to the same degree and probably have some sort of linearity issue. They're NOS from a reputable antique radio supplier and I don't like them. Shame as they cost over $100 and I will have to move them along.
The other thing I did is throw up my hands, tell myself the last generation E50 is what it is, belts are what they are, and I plugged the thing into an antique Italian made auto transformer from my childhood which has a silly number of taps since Italy in those days had 110, 125, 140, 160, 180, and 220V mains in the mountainous regions of Northern Italy near the French border. We had 220V, right down the street was 160V.. I used the 140V and 125V taps which gives me 105V on 117V mains and the 124/II is quite happy.. The speed setting is almost centered.. I will make this permanent with a 12V Antek toroid in a nice box properly fused and plug n play.
It is much quieter at 105V, but takes a noticeably longer time to get up to speed when turned on.
The other table OTOH is happy as a clam on 117V, but is not as well centered.
Both are running with ~1mm clearances between the magnets and the stepped pulley which is far tighter than I have seen on an untouched table, and very common on any I have worked on that have been touched by others.
The line voltage here is at historical values during most of the day. So I am confused..
Perhaps despite seeming very strong perhaps the magnets are quite a bit weaker than when new. I have encountered only one that was more or less completely demagnetized.
Anyone equipped to remagnetize these things?
I finally installed the Hanze springs tonight, I waited until I was sure I had the manual dexterity required to do it. The process went well. In no sense did it address the issue with the belt and pulley unfortunately.
I had geltec bushings installed previously, and this table was already extraordinarily quiet, although I have been too lazy or sick to be bothered with such niceties as actually measuring the table noise floor.
What I can hear clearly is the very last vestige of motor noise that I could hear on lead in and lead out (I guess around 120Hz) is completely inaudible now.
Might be a hint more detail as well.
Certainly in terms of cost a viable alternative to the geltec bushings and they do seem to provide more isolation between the motor and chassis than the geltec bushings do. This is what I hear anyway..
While I changed only one thing at a time tonight I am having a system problem which probably centers around the RCA UX-226 nos globes I installed a few weeks ago in my line stage - the old Sylvanias ST 26s after countless hours of use were abruptly beyond their prime. I have another pair on the way, but they are not here yet making it hard for me to determine whether other aspects of performance were affected. I just don't find the RCAs resolve to the same degree and probably have some sort of linearity issue. They're NOS from a reputable antique radio supplier and I don't like them. Shame as they cost over $100 and I will have to move them along.
The other thing I did is throw up my hands, tell myself the last generation E50 is what it is, belts are what they are, and I plugged the thing into an antique Italian made auto transformer from my childhood which has a silly number of taps since Italy in those days had 110, 125, 140, 160, 180, and 220V mains in the mountainous regions of Northern Italy near the French border. We had 220V, right down the street was 160V.. I used the 140V and 125V taps which gives me 105V on 117V mains and the 124/II is quite happy.. The speed setting is almost centered.. I will make this permanent with a 12V Antek toroid in a nice box properly fused and plug n play.
It is much quieter at 105V, but takes a noticeably longer time to get up to speed when turned on.
The other table OTOH is happy as a clam on 117V, but is not as well centered.
Both are running with ~1mm clearances between the magnets and the stepped pulley which is far tighter than I have seen on an untouched table, and very common on any I have worked on that have been touched by others.
The line voltage here is at historical values during most of the day. So I am confused..
Perhaps despite seeming very strong perhaps the magnets are quite a bit weaker than when new. I have encountered only one that was more or less completely demagnetized.
Anyone equipped to remagnetize these things?
idler
Hi Kevin, I have been following this thread as I would like to begin restoring a td124 serial number 31xxx that I picked up on ebay years ago, but have never used. I have a few questions as I try to make decisions about the various parts suppliers to use. For instance, I was wondering whether the Mirko idler you recently installed has an o-ring, as you then made a comment questioning the validity of o-ring idlers. The Mirko idlers I've seen on ebay are described as using an o-ring. I would like to get the improved motor mounting kit. Would you recommend going straight to the hanze springs at this point? Thanks for sharing your ongoing work with the table.-Robert
Hi Kevin, I have been following this thread as I would like to begin restoring a td124 serial number 31xxx that I picked up on ebay years ago, but have never used. I have a few questions as I try to make decisions about the various parts suppliers to use. For instance, I was wondering whether the Mirko idler you recently installed has an o-ring, as you then made a comment questioning the validity of o-ring idlers. The Mirko idlers I've seen on ebay are described as using an o-ring. I would like to get the improved motor mounting kit. Would you recommend going straight to the hanze springs at this point? Thanks for sharing your ongoing work with the table.-Robert
Hi Robert,
The Mirko idler is just a much nicer version based on the OEM part, not an o-ring based variation. I do not know whether or not this part is still available..
The Hanze springs are a very reasonable alternative to geltec bushings, and since they cost no more I would recommend them.
More than anything else perhaps, the MKII motor mounting kit is a must if you have an older TD-124 - huge difference.
The Mirko idler is just a much nicer version based on the OEM part, not an o-ring based variation. I do not know whether or not this part is still available..
The Hanze springs are a very reasonable alternative to geltec bushings, and since they cost no more I would recommend them.
More than anything else perhaps, the MKII motor mounting kit is a must if you have an older TD-124 - huge difference.
My .02
I have owned a TD124 for many years, I now own 3. when it rains it poures I guess.
What I have found with the 124 is.
I always use a Thorens belt, silent running then, a bad fitting belt, too thick, poor finish whatever = noise, speed problems.
The early nylon bearing is very sensitive to lubrication, I use thorens oil, For the oilite bearings 20wt.
Update to the MKii motor suspension for the E50.
The Papst motor uses the MKii suspension allready.
On the Papst typically every few years I clean the motor shaft, rinse out the old lube, re oil making sure to soak the felt lining and a dab of grease for the thrust. It's good for another few years.
The Papst motor whirs, but its mostly the noise from the turbines moving air, I have never heard a Papst that didnt whir, it's normal.
What I like about the Papst is it cools itself, great for an all day long vinyl spinning session.
In the early tables the intermediate pulley bushing can wear, you will hear a slight knocking, replace the bushing/ball bearing and reverse the support shaft.
In the later tables I have never had to replace the intermediate pulley bushing, i just keep it oiled.
Same for the main bearing, if the clearance is a bit high, replace the bushings. They can be selected for best fit.
The E50, I have rebuilt 2 replacing the bushings, and felt washers, I also use a silicon nitride thrust ball bearing. And carefully align the motor's shells for quietest running and carefully tighten the 4 screws. Let run for a couple hours and tweek the case, if you pick up noise. I have found that if they are out of alignment slightly the result is noise.
I typically clean the drive train a couple times a year, All 3 tables they run silently, its all I can do to hear them running. They come up to speed almost instantly, and are stable in a few minutes for hours on end.
The one danger is if the top platter must run absolutely true, if it's warped it would be a miracle getting it trued. I wouldnt recommend replacing the rubber bumpers, they are dead on from the factory.
Do not seperate the platter from the bearing shaft, That requires a dial gage to get it dead on.
I have owned many turntables over the years, The SP10 is one of my favorites, I still have it. But the TD124 is my favorite.
bob
I have owned a TD124 for many years, I now own 3. when it rains it poures I guess.
What I have found with the 124 is.
I always use a Thorens belt, silent running then, a bad fitting belt, too thick, poor finish whatever = noise, speed problems.
The early nylon bearing is very sensitive to lubrication, I use thorens oil, For the oilite bearings 20wt.
Update to the MKii motor suspension for the E50.
The Papst motor uses the MKii suspension allready.
On the Papst typically every few years I clean the motor shaft, rinse out the old lube, re oil making sure to soak the felt lining and a dab of grease for the thrust. It's good for another few years.
The Papst motor whirs, but its mostly the noise from the turbines moving air, I have never heard a Papst that didnt whir, it's normal.
What I like about the Papst is it cools itself, great for an all day long vinyl spinning session.
In the early tables the intermediate pulley bushing can wear, you will hear a slight knocking, replace the bushing/ball bearing and reverse the support shaft.
In the later tables I have never had to replace the intermediate pulley bushing, i just keep it oiled.
Same for the main bearing, if the clearance is a bit high, replace the bushings. They can be selected for best fit.
The E50, I have rebuilt 2 replacing the bushings, and felt washers, I also use a silicon nitride thrust ball bearing. And carefully align the motor's shells for quietest running and carefully tighten the 4 screws. Let run for a couple hours and tweek the case, if you pick up noise. I have found that if they are out of alignment slightly the result is noise.
I typically clean the drive train a couple times a year, All 3 tables they run silently, its all I can do to hear them running. They come up to speed almost instantly, and are stable in a few minutes for hours on end.
The one danger is if the top platter must run absolutely true, if it's warped it would be a miracle getting it trued. I wouldnt recommend replacing the rubber bumpers, they are dead on from the factory.
Do not seperate the platter from the bearing shaft, That requires a dial gage to get it dead on.
I have owned many turntables over the years, The SP10 is one of my favorites, I still have it. But the TD124 is my favorite.
bob
Last edited:
Well, I read through this whole thread which prompted me to tear into my TD-124 MKII. Got everything super clean, polished, etc. And decided to check the motor. I promptly lost the ball bearing so I replaced with a silicon nitrite from Boca.
Originally, my motor was pretty quiet, but with a minor scraping sound if I had my ear next to it. Now it's a whirling dervish. And no I didn't replace the bushings, just oiled the felts. I've tried repositioning the top/bottom covers and the bushings, but no luck.
What should I do? Buy the kit and do a rebuild? Please help!
Originally, my motor was pretty quiet, but with a minor scraping sound if I had my ear next to it. Now it's a whirling dervish. And no I didn't replace the bushings, just oiled the felts. I've tried repositioning the top/bottom covers and the bushings, but no luck.
What should I do? Buy the kit and do a rebuild? Please help!
Is the motor pully touching the triangular shield plate ?
Can you spin by hand ? any rubbing then ?