Probably need to talk to the help desk about your login issue, no reason I am aware of why your old account should not have worked, I do note that ntesla reports your membership data as 2009.. Perhaps you can request to use your original moniker.
As to the bearing issue, I purchase bushings from sellers who supposed supply them specifically for the TD-124 and they have all been variable in terms of fit.
As to the bearing issue, I purchase bushings from sellers who supposed supply them specifically for the TD-124 and they have all been variable in terms of fit.
Royco, Mobil & Shell turbine oils: any experience with them?
Specifically I'm interested in knowing if anyone has either used one of these synthetic turbine oils in the TD 124 motor, or if they've investigated them and determined they wouldn't be appropriate for this application.
Royco 555 Turbine Oil
Royco 555 Turbine Oil 1 Quart | eBay
Shell Aeroshell Turbine Oil 560
Shell Aeroshell Turbine Oil 560 Manufacturer Lot 6064 | eBay
Mobil Jet Turbine Oil
Mobile Jet 254 Turbine Oil One Quart Can Mil PRF 23699 Synthetic Oil | eBay
I'm still digging into the specs of these, but here's a link to the Royco 555
http://www.qclubricants.com/msds/PDS/Royco555.pdf
Specifically I'm interested in knowing if anyone has either used one of these synthetic turbine oils in the TD 124 motor, or if they've investigated them and determined they wouldn't be appropriate for this application.
Royco 555 Turbine Oil
Royco 555 Turbine Oil 1 Quart | eBay
Shell Aeroshell Turbine Oil 560
Shell Aeroshell Turbine Oil 560 Manufacturer Lot 6064 | eBay
Mobil Jet Turbine Oil
Mobile Jet 254 Turbine Oil One Quart Can Mil PRF 23699 Synthetic Oil | eBay
I'm still digging into the specs of these, but here's a link to the Royco 555
http://www.qclubricants.com/msds/PDS/Royco555.pdf
TD 124 motor & spindle operating temps?
I'm trying to familiarize myself with some of the military specifications for various turbine oils, and as I've read them, I realize I've not come across much discussion related to the operating temps of the motor (spindle/bushing contact point temp) and the spindle. Clearly the motor runs quite a bit hotter than the spindle and while there's been discussion about just how hot it runs, all I've read has to do with how hot the outside is to the touch.
If anyone's conducted measurements, or feels they know enough about motor operating temperatures in general to hazard a guess as to the temp. range on the bearing surfaces, I'd sure like to hear what you have to say. Likewise for the spindle. I understand the general thinking seems to be that one oil can do both jobs, but I'm just not there yet. Thanks.
I'm trying to familiarize myself with some of the military specifications for various turbine oils, and as I've read them, I realize I've not come across much discussion related to the operating temps of the motor (spindle/bushing contact point temp) and the spindle. Clearly the motor runs quite a bit hotter than the spindle and while there's been discussion about just how hot it runs, all I've read has to do with how hot the outside is to the touch.
If anyone's conducted measurements, or feels they know enough about motor operating temperatures in general to hazard a guess as to the temp. range on the bearing surfaces, I'd sure like to hear what you have to say. Likewise for the spindle. I understand the general thinking seems to be that one oil can do both jobs, but I'm just not there yet. Thanks.
Thorens Motor Grommets vs RCA Motor Grommets
Nine New Motor Grommets for RCA 45 RPM Record Player Free Fast Shipping | eBay
I have several Duals I'm working on, so came across this ad while scanning this seller's inventory of Dual parts. While they don't have the top washer, they are advertised as new rubber and the motor they support, while not identical to the e-50, looks like it could be of comparable weight. Perhaps they're completely different dimensions/load capacity than what's currently being offered for the Thorens, but then again, perhaps not. The difference in price is what intrigues me.
Thoughts?
Nine New Motor Grommets for RCA 45 RPM Record Player Free Fast Shipping | eBay
I have several Duals I'm working on, so came across this ad while scanning this seller's inventory of Dual parts. While they don't have the top washer, they are advertised as new rubber and the motor they support, while not identical to the e-50, looks like it could be of comparable weight. Perhaps they're completely different dimensions/load capacity than what's currently being offered for the Thorens, but then again, perhaps not. The difference in price is what intrigues me.
Thoughts?
Isoflex PDP 40 in Thorens TD 124 motor?
Still digging into various motor lubrication options and hit on one as a result of my work on various Dual turntables - Isoflex PDP 40. The 1200 series Duals have pretty massive motors with spherical sintered bronze bushings. Specs on the Isoflex PDP 40 indicate it's a synthetic oil intended for a variety of uses, including "synchronous motors." There's a mention of it being suitable for use in turbines as well. The full specs. can be found at the link below. I'm interested in hearing any thoughts on its use in the E-50 motor.
http://www.nonstopsystems.com/radio/hell-ISOFLEX_PDP_61_A_Fernschreib-K.pdf
Still digging into various motor lubrication options and hit on one as a result of my work on various Dual turntables - Isoflex PDP 40. The 1200 series Duals have pretty massive motors with spherical sintered bronze bushings. Specs on the Isoflex PDP 40 indicate it's a synthetic oil intended for a variety of uses, including "synchronous motors." There's a mention of it being suitable for use in turbines as well. The full specs. can be found at the link below. I'm interested in hearing any thoughts on its use in the E-50 motor.
http://www.nonstopsystems.com/radio/hell-ISOFLEX_PDP_61_A_Fernschreib-K.pdf
Bear in mind that the E-50 is an induction motor that needs a certain level of drag to assure that it runs within the proper speed range. The original lubricants were selected to assure proper operation over a wide range of conditions. You're essentially second guessing the original designer of the table which is not necessarily a bad thing at all, just be aware that you may have a lot of additional work ahead of you to get it to run correctly with all of the proposed changes.. Good luck!
Thanks, Kevinkr. Much of this is probably old news to you, but I'm stumbling through it for the first time on my own and despite having read a good deal here and on other forums, I really haven't learned enough, so I'm trying to learn more any way I can.
I understand the Dual and Thorens motors aren't of the same design, but I don't quite follow how the "drag" you're referring to relates to the lubrication used in the motor. Are you suggesting any lubrication characteristics that make it spin more easily would be a problem, or the opposite? Lubrication is a science, one I'm unlikely to ever understand, but I do think it's possible to learn enough to make a proper decision here, or at least that's my goal. Viscosity alone is a lot more complex than I ever thought it was, so of course what you're saying is of great interest to me and I'd like to hear more of your thoughts on the matter.
You mentioned "all of the proposed changes." I'm not looking at making any other modifications to the motor. I did mention some grommets I saw on eBay and asked if anyone knew anything about them, but I don't need them. All the motor grommets were replaced with ones I bought in a kit, although I have to admit I had to take the word of the seller that they were for the Thorens. Now that I know there are other turntables out there that used grommets that look (but might not be) identical, that's something I have to take into consideration. I never did believe the old saying, "parts is parts."
My only planned work on the motor is to install the motor rebuild kit I purchase, the same one most people use. But I've spoken to the seller who tells me the bushings have been saturated with Mobil 1 engine oil. And that complicates things a bit for reasons I'll explain below.
To be clear, my objective isn't to try and second guess the designer, but to figure out just what the designer actually used for lubricating the motor, use that, or something with very similar characteristics, which is hard to do since I have never seen the original Thorens specs for the motor oil.
I understand that if someone is really insistent on using the most appropriate lubrication known for the E-50 motor, they should just buy what Schopper sells. Honestly I'm not 100% sold on that option either - primarily because no specs are given for it - only that it's a "NATO grade turbine oil" that can be used in cruise missiles. Yes, that's what the U.S. distributor gave me for info. on the oil.
Having read up a bit on the milspec for cruise missile turbine oil, I have to say I honestly don't think much of that applies here. One of the main concerns for lubrication in cruise missiles it turns out is idle time, for instance.
Over at VinylEngine I came across a similar discussion related to lubricating the Duals. One post in particular really got my attention. The fellow provided a pretty detailed comparison/contrast of engine oils vs machine oils, why one can't simply be substituted for another. It made a great deal of sense to me.
To summarize what was said there - Engine oils are used in closed lubrication systems with filters, several quarts of circulating lubrication, intended to be drained periodically. These oils contain additives that can, over time, clog sintered bronze and when exposed to water, for instance, become milky. Machine oils are used in much smaller quantities, in environments where they're in direct contact with the atmosphere.
Thus I'm doing the best I can to figure out just what really is the proper oil for this motor and I'll keep looking into it and asking questions until I figure it out. Like a dog with a bone, I suppose.
Lower viscosity oils will cause the motor to run faster than it should as will sloppy bearings, at a certain point the eddy current brake can no longer be adjusted sufficiently to slow it down. This incidentally applies also to the lubricant in the main bearing well.
The consensus of most who work on these tables is that a 20wt electric motor oil is about as close as you will get to the original. The 3 in One 20wt Electric Motor Oil I recommended earlier in the thread works extremely well. I've rebuilt more than a half dozen of these motors and used this oil to impregnate new motor bearings without issue. The oldest of these motors has run for over 1K hours over the past two years with no need for further attention.
I would recommend checking to see what weight of synthetic was used in your bearings.. Were it me I would heat the bearings to drive out the existing oil and replace with the above 20wt oil.
Automotive oils are best avoided for the reasons you state. IMVLE some turbine oils do not stand up well in the presence of oxygen and I no longer use them for this reason. (Yellow sludge)
The consensus of most who work on these tables is that a 20wt electric motor oil is about as close as you will get to the original. The 3 in One 20wt Electric Motor Oil I recommended earlier in the thread works extremely well. I've rebuilt more than a half dozen of these motors and used this oil to impregnate new motor bearings without issue. The oldest of these motors has run for over 1K hours over the past two years with no need for further attention.
I would recommend checking to see what weight of synthetic was used in your bearings.. Were it me I would heat the bearings to drive out the existing oil and replace with the above 20wt oil.
Automotive oils are best avoided for the reasons you state. IMVLE some turbine oils do not stand up well in the presence of oxygen and I no longer use them for this reason. (Yellow sludge)
Kevinkr - I fully agree with everything you said. My focus is not to find a better alternative to various engine oils or turbine oils (those that are not intended for use in electric motors with sintered bronze bearings), but to determine if there is anything that would be superior to the 3-in-1 electric motor oil, which currently would be my lubrication of choice.
The work you and others have done in this area carries a lot of weight with me. Hearing specific examples of a well-running motor after two years in service and 1k hours does give me more confidence in the 3-in-one. The only other data I've got on turntable electric motor lubrication longevity comes from Dual. The 1200 series motors apparently were expected to run 5k hours before needing lubrication (they also use oil saturated felt washers).
What has given me pause are comments describing the E-50 motor as running hot. Were I to read something attributed to Thorens that confirms the motors ran hot when new, I'd be less concerned. It could well be the motor design, but lubrication can play such an important part in heat buildup (friction, vibration) that I do wonder.
I also wonder what role the selection of lubricant plays in the extensive break-in period that seems so critical to getting rebuilt motors dialed in. Are other factors much more in play here, i.e. tolerance differences compared to the original, spindle wear, minor deformations in old motor casings, more precise methods of motor assembly by the manufacturer? Or did Thorens actually go through a similar tweaking of the motor under load? Understand I'm not suggesting the break-in tweaking under load isn't necessary, just trying to understand exactly why it is necessary and to the extent possible, determine if it is at all related to the lubrication being used today. If a different lubrication were found that reduced motor vibration further, reduced heat buildup further, and all other lubrication characteristics were on par or better than the 3-in-1, then a reduction in initial vibration, a reduction in overall effort necessary to get the motor dialed in would likely translate to less wear on the moving parts over time.
In short, if you were to spec. a better oil than the 3-in-one, how would it differ?
The work you and others have done in this area carries a lot of weight with me. Hearing specific examples of a well-running motor after two years in service and 1k hours does give me more confidence in the 3-in-one. The only other data I've got on turntable electric motor lubrication longevity comes from Dual. The 1200 series motors apparently were expected to run 5k hours before needing lubrication (they also use oil saturated felt washers).
What has given me pause are comments describing the E-50 motor as running hot. Were I to read something attributed to Thorens that confirms the motors ran hot when new, I'd be less concerned. It could well be the motor design, but lubrication can play such an important part in heat buildup (friction, vibration) that I do wonder.
I also wonder what role the selection of lubricant plays in the extensive break-in period that seems so critical to getting rebuilt motors dialed in. Are other factors much more in play here, i.e. tolerance differences compared to the original, spindle wear, minor deformations in old motor casings, more precise methods of motor assembly by the manufacturer? Or did Thorens actually go through a similar tweaking of the motor under load? Understand I'm not suggesting the break-in tweaking under load isn't necessary, just trying to understand exactly why it is necessary and to the extent possible, determine if it is at all related to the lubrication being used today. If a different lubrication were found that reduced motor vibration further, reduced heat buildup further, and all other lubrication characteristics were on par or better than the 3-in-1, then a reduction in initial vibration, a reduction in overall effort necessary to get the motor dialed in would likely translate to less wear on the moving parts over time.
In short, if you were to spec. a better oil than the 3-in-one, how would it differ?
Yes the motors were known to run extremely hot even back in the day. There were in fact several winding revisions intended to help with this and other issues during the manufacturing run of the 124 and 124/II.
The Thorens recommended interval for (first user) lubrication of these motors is 5K hours, although I plan to service mine sooner than that in all likelihood.
The Thorens recommended interval for (first user) lubrication of these motors is 5K hours, although I plan to service mine sooner than that in all likelihood.
Kevin, thanks all the insight into this wonderful table. I am in process of rebuilding mine and because of all of the small inherent speed issues, I almost sold it this past week! (I do have a Bogen Idler that seems so much simpler and has the same slam and musical realism!) <<<< Free plug for idler drives!! After reading your whopper of a thread (still not finished reading it!), I've reconsidered, and will plug along with the rebuild! (New bushings, felt pads, and soaked the crap of the pads in messy oil already. New Thacker belt a month ago. Some other light cleanup. Now I'm off to clean out under the step pulley!)
Thanks again for an in depth thread!
Dominic
Thanks again for an in depth thread!
Dominic
Hi Dominic,
Some are trickier than others to sort out. I've had more than a few frustrating moments with pretty much every one I have ever worked on and including the two I currently own.
The problem with speed stability given the use of an induction motor is that literally everything interacts - belt tension and thickness, magnet strength (I've seen a dead magnet or two), bearing wear, lubricants that are too light, and high line voltage (torque increases). It is a matter of getting everything into relatively small windows of adjustment. Often if the table is about ready to run well, and runs too fast regardless of eddy current brake magnet setting, if the magnet is good then belt and bearings/lubricants need another look.
Note than main bearings with nylon bushings need to be overhauled and proper sintered bronze (oilite if possible) bushings installed.
Keep an eye on the Thacker belt, look specifically for residue on the pulley running surfaces. May not have a problem, but the Thorens OEM belt I sourced from them left a lot of residue, and got noisy as a result. Talcing the belt once in a while helps more than you might suspect. I'm now running a Schopper on the 124/II and a FLA belt (see earlier in thread) on my 124/I - both are entirely satisfactory. I have two OEM vintage belts I run for comparative purposes.
The end result can be very satisfying, my TD-124/II is the most musically satisfying table I have ever owned, and is stable and subjectively extremely quiet. I've not owned a huge stable of tables over the years, but I owned enough and heard many others, and I am quite pleased with mine. Worth the trouble, and once sorted they just run, and run. Mine has needed no adjustments at all in over a year.
Some are trickier than others to sort out. I've had more than a few frustrating moments with pretty much every one I have ever worked on and including the two I currently own.
The problem with speed stability given the use of an induction motor is that literally everything interacts - belt tension and thickness, magnet strength (I've seen a dead magnet or two), bearing wear, lubricants that are too light, and high line voltage (torque increases). It is a matter of getting everything into relatively small windows of adjustment. Often if the table is about ready to run well, and runs too fast regardless of eddy current brake magnet setting, if the magnet is good then belt and bearings/lubricants need another look.
Note than main bearings with nylon bushings need to be overhauled and proper sintered bronze (oilite if possible) bushings installed.
Keep an eye on the Thacker belt, look specifically for residue on the pulley running surfaces. May not have a problem, but the Thorens OEM belt I sourced from them left a lot of residue, and got noisy as a result. Talcing the belt once in a while helps more than you might suspect. I'm now running a Schopper on the 124/II and a FLA belt (see earlier in thread) on my 124/I - both are entirely satisfactory. I have two OEM vintage belts I run for comparative purposes.
The end result can be very satisfying, my TD-124/II is the most musically satisfying table I have ever owned, and is stable and subjectively extremely quiet. I've not owned a huge stable of tables over the years, but I owned enough and heard many others, and I am quite pleased with mine. Worth the trouble, and once sorted they just run, and run. Mine has needed no adjustments at all in over a year.
Hello Kevin! Thanks for taking the time to reply. My 124 while being a TD 124/I has the bronze main bearings and are in good shape as far I can see. I do like the sonically dead cast iron platter on there. I don't own any moving coil cartridges or an arm that will acommodate them. I'm at a good place sonically with my setup (music and musicians sound like they are in the room with me on the good recordings!) and not sure I need to upgrade to MC so I don't worry about magnetic attraction. I read about somebody adding an extra mat of some sort (raising the record a few millimeters) and sucessfully using an old decca moving coil cartridge with the cast iron platter so it's doable.
Regarding the Thacker belt, mine has been in there long enough to loosen up a bit. I was concerned with the tightness affecting the motor bearings but it did loosen up and no problems at all. What I did today while cleaning the step pulley shaft and bushing, was polish the pulley's where belt rides with 3m polishing paper from an aluminum polishing kit. (can you cay PITA!) It involves wd40 on the paper and gets a little messy. Came out nice. I'll remove the platter and snap a picture later. My hands were full of oil so I did not use my camera!
So now with that work and one more magnet adjustment, I have this baby running at constant speed. In my findings, this is one table that you can't expect results unless you redo EVERYTHING at once! Ive shaped up quite a few old dogs over the past few years including a few Dual 1019's, one with a seized motor, a few Dual 1219's, Empire 398, 498, 598, 2 Bogen/Lenco's, a couple of Metzners with their weird drive, etc, etc.The TD 124 is by far the most complex and also the most gratifying. (Life's small victories!) So now I'll mount a tonearm, probably an identical Pioneer arm from a pl 41 that I'm using on my Bogen/Lenco and do some comparing! After I fix the lock on our washing machine! Damn life getting inn the way of my hobby!
Peace,
Dominic
Hi Dominic,
Funny how life's chores get in the way of our hobbies.. lol
I run a variety of SPUs (currently a Royal N on an AT 18gm Technihard shell) on my 124/II which has a cast iron platter, the reports of problems were probably slightly exaggerated as I haven't had any problems with them on a Schick arm. I do have a merrill-scilia mat on the table. (I've also run DL-103, Zu Denon DL-103, DL-103SA, DL-103D, and the GoldeNote Bobboli HOMC on this table.)
Your point about doing everything is well taken and important!
Funny how life's chores get in the way of our hobbies.. lol
I run a variety of SPUs (currently a Royal N on an AT 18gm Technihard shell) on my 124/II which has a cast iron platter, the reports of problems were probably slightly exaggerated as I haven't had any problems with them on a Schick arm. I do have a merrill-scilia mat on the table. (I've also run DL-103, Zu Denon DL-103, DL-103SA, DL-103D, and the GoldeNote Bobboli HOMC on this table.)
Your point about doing everything is well taken and important!
One of the biggest problems i have with the 124, at least with the ET-2 arm is that all my MC Ortofons really dislike the iron platter. I feel this has something to do with the geometry of the arm - setting vtf is a lot fussier than on a normal arm.
Oh, i don't use the aluminium platter as well, which can only make this worse.
Not sure if a really thick mat like a carbon one or a copper add-on platter could help and not change the sound too much.
Oh, i don't use the aluminium platter as well, which can only make this worse.
Not sure if a really thick mat like a carbon one or a copper add-on platter could help and not change the sound too much.
The motortemp.for a good working motor is about 43 degree.C,on the stator and at the bearing about 23 degree C.
A good indication if the bearings etc.are ok is after a coldstart the turndown time must be more then 25 sec till stand still.
Volken
A good indication if the bearings etc.are ok is after a coldstart the turndown time must be more then 25 sec till stand still.
Volken
Which bearings are you talking about?
if you are talking about all the bearings together, then that includes the motor, intermediate bearing, and platter bearing. Other than that, perhaps you are talking about the motor only. Of course if that is true, then you would need to remove the belt for a valid measurement.
Volken
Which bearings are you talking about?
if you are talking about all the bearings together, then that includes the motor, intermediate bearing, and platter bearing. Other than that, perhaps you are talking about the motor only. Of course if that is true, then you would need to remove the belt for a valid measurement.
Thank you for the information.
To keep everyone updated, I currently have contact information for two companies that make synthetic oils - one makes the oil that Dual used for the sintered bearings in its Dual 1219/1229 motor (Isoflex PDP-40) and another carries a full line of synthetics specifically formulated for sintered bronze. I have already spoken with an engineer at the first company and will be calling him again today. Thus, the more I know about the operational temperatures and load characteristics of the Thorens, the more likely I am to find oils that were formulated to match those characteristics.
To clarify, my original question was intended to determine the operating temperature of the motor's sintered bronze bearings in operation (under load) as that is the temperature the oil must be designed for.
I was also trying to ascertain the temperature of the sintered bronze bearings for the turntable platter spindle, because I suspected it operates at a much, much lower temperature. Since increased temperature at the spindle/bearing contact surface prompts oil oil flow from the bearing to the spindle, selecting a oil with a much lower operating temperature oil for the spindle, if one can be found, seems warranted.