Update on Thorens rebuild
Last week a rebuild kit of sorts popped up on eBay. While the seller wasn't able to tell me specifically the original source of the kit (a friend bought it for him several years ago. He's since sold the Thorens and had no use for the kit). I couldn't pass up the chance to get several components I knew I needed, so I bought it. Got a new belt, chassis support rubber, motor mounts, strobe mirror, spindle bushings, a separate smaller bushing I suspect is for the drive pulley, and a replacement for the bubble level (mine works, but is a little yellow). I'm rather hoping that five years ago, when this kit was supposedly purchased, that Schopper was selling kits, but haven't been able to confirm that.
Kevenkr, you mentioned Schopper belts. Do they all come with a Thorens stamp on them? Mine doesn't have one, which is the only clue I've got.
Anyway, I've got sufficient parts to start working on the turntable. Nothing specific for the motor, but thought simply doing a thorough cleaning and oiling would be a good first step.
Last week a rebuild kit of sorts popped up on eBay. While the seller wasn't able to tell me specifically the original source of the kit (a friend bought it for him several years ago. He's since sold the Thorens and had no use for the kit). I couldn't pass up the chance to get several components I knew I needed, so I bought it. Got a new belt, chassis support rubber, motor mounts, strobe mirror, spindle bushings, a separate smaller bushing I suspect is for the drive pulley, and a replacement for the bubble level (mine works, but is a little yellow). I'm rather hoping that five years ago, when this kit was supposedly purchased, that Schopper was selling kits, but haven't been able to confirm that.
Kevenkr, you mentioned Schopper belts. Do they all come with a Thorens stamp on them? Mine doesn't have one, which is the only clue I've got.
Anyway, I've got sufficient parts to start working on the turntable. Nothing specific for the motor, but thought simply doing a thorough cleaning and oiling would be a good first step.
Hi Missouricatman,
Sounds like you got a good score there, everything needed to freshen up the table.
Definitely overhaul the motor as discussed earlier in the thread, clean or replace the motor bearings, resist the temptation to just lube it.
The Schopper belt does not say Thorens on it, and in any event the currently available Thorens oem belt is problematic. (Noted elsewhere on this thread)
I no longer remember whether you have a 124/I or a 124/II - if a 124/I make sure you do not have the nylon bushings in the main bearing, if you do these must be replaced - they are not too hard to press out. I would look for the Spanish seller on eBay who sells replacement sintered bronze bushings for the 124.. (The others sourced from US sellers seem to fit too loosely in the bore and may be too tight on the spindle as well. I've not tried the Spanish ones yet, but am not thrilled with the ones made here.)
Sounds like you got a good score there, everything needed to freshen up the table.
Definitely overhaul the motor as discussed earlier in the thread, clean or replace the motor bearings, resist the temptation to just lube it.
The Schopper belt does not say Thorens on it, and in any event the currently available Thorens oem belt is problematic. (Noted elsewhere on this thread)
I no longer remember whether you have a 124/I or a 124/II - if a 124/I make sure you do not have the nylon bushings in the main bearing, if you do these must be replaced - they are not too hard to press out. I would look for the Spanish seller on eBay who sells replacement sintered bronze bushings for the 124.. (The others sourced from US sellers seem to fit too loosely in the bore and may be too tight on the spindle as well. I've not tried the Spanish ones yet, but am not thrilled with the ones made here.)
Hi KevinKr:
I've got the MK II. I remember seeing the seller of bushings you mentioned. I suppose the ones I got in this kit are a crap shoot at best, particularly since I've no idea of their original source. What I need to track down here is a good machine shop with the ability not only to press old ones out and replace, but that might be able to put a micrometer on everything, old vs. new. I suppose that's asking for a lot, but then again, knowing where I am now, where I'd be with them replaced would seem worth knowing, if it's knowable.
What we know about this particular MK II is that it is operational, comes up to speed after a few revs., but does speed up a bit after everything's been running for 20 minutes (could be the Mobil 1 I have in there is higher viscosity than is optimal). We also know there is an obvious oscillation in a spectrogram that at the moment I'm attributing to a vibration in the drive pulley. So when it comes to bushings, the one for the drive pulley is the first one to go.
Oh, and we also know who the original owner was, since he scribed his name on the chassis beneath the platter. Doing a simple search I know that was 68 when he passed away and the turntable was donated to a thrift store in a town near him around that time. I do feel something of an obligation to restore and put back into service what I suspect what was a prized possession of his.
I've got the MK II. I remember seeing the seller of bushings you mentioned. I suppose the ones I got in this kit are a crap shoot at best, particularly since I've no idea of their original source. What I need to track down here is a good machine shop with the ability not only to press old ones out and replace, but that might be able to put a micrometer on everything, old vs. new. I suppose that's asking for a lot, but then again, knowing where I am now, where I'd be with them replaced would seem worth knowing, if it's knowable.
What we know about this particular MK II is that it is operational, comes up to speed after a few revs., but does speed up a bit after everything's been running for 20 minutes (could be the Mobil 1 I have in there is higher viscosity than is optimal). We also know there is an obvious oscillation in a spectrogram that at the moment I'm attributing to a vibration in the drive pulley. So when it comes to bushings, the one for the drive pulley is the first one to go.
Oh, and we also know who the original owner was, since he scribed his name on the chassis beneath the platter. Doing a simple search I know that was 68 when he passed away and the turntable was donated to a thrift store in a town near him around that time. I do feel something of an obligation to restore and put back into service what I suspect what was a prized possession of his.
Over the past 5 - 10 years there have only been a limited number of sources for these parts so the ones you got are undoubtedly just fine.
The biggest issue for me has been the belts, I've bought tons of parts from all of the suppliers on eBay and some from Schopper as well, all have been pretty good with the few noted exceptions I've mentioned in the threads.
I've got two running tables and a parts unit, both with parts sourced from different suppliers, they both make music and sound good.
Note that these tables are not nearly as quiet mechanically as you may be used to, the eddy current brake is quite audible at a small distance away, however very little of this noise gets to the platter particularly if you have the cast iron platter rather than the zamac. (Unfortunately all series 124/II that I have seen in the U.S. have the zamac platter - I've not seen a single one with the cast iron platter.) I acquired a cast iron platter for my 124/II and observed that the table is significantly quieter overall, and the overall presentation is a bit darker/cleaner - I guess the zamac has a midrange zingyness I did not notice until it was gone - I don't miss it.
The biggest issue for me has been the belts, I've bought tons of parts from all of the suppliers on eBay and some from Schopper as well, all have been pretty good with the few noted exceptions I've mentioned in the threads.
I've got two running tables and a parts unit, both with parts sourced from different suppliers, they both make music and sound good.
Note that these tables are not nearly as quiet mechanically as you may be used to, the eddy current brake is quite audible at a small distance away, however very little of this noise gets to the platter particularly if you have the cast iron platter rather than the zamac. (Unfortunately all series 124/II that I have seen in the U.S. have the zamac platter - I've not seen a single one with the cast iron platter.) I acquired a cast iron platter for my 124/II and observed that the table is significantly quieter overall, and the overall presentation is a bit darker/cleaner - I guess the zamac has a midrange zingyness I did not notice until it was gone - I don't miss it.
Kevinkr -
When it comes to noise, what I'm used to is a Dual 1219, an idler drive that does need some watching after and even then a good ear placed directly above the idler wheel can often pick it up. I've pulled many a spectrogram via Audacity as I work to dampen the plinth, so I'll be interested to get the Thorens mechanically revived so I can do a comparison. Not expecting miracles, don't even know that the stock TP-14 (if I remember the Thorens number right) couldn't use some TLC as well.
So I'm on a similar journey to the one you probably embarked on many years back when you got your first TD 124. My skill set going in is probably not even what yours was back then, but still I'm intrigued by the workings of the device and I'm only 60, so have plenty of time to work things out! And thanks for giving me a little direction now and then so I don't stray too far off the path.
When it comes to noise, what I'm used to is a Dual 1219, an idler drive that does need some watching after and even then a good ear placed directly above the idler wheel can often pick it up. I've pulled many a spectrogram via Audacity as I work to dampen the plinth, so I'll be interested to get the Thorens mechanically revived so I can do a comparison. Not expecting miracles, don't even know that the stock TP-14 (if I remember the Thorens number right) couldn't use some TLC as well.
So I'm on a similar journey to the one you probably embarked on many years back when you got your first TD 124. My skill set going in is probably not even what yours was back then, but still I'm intrigued by the workings of the device and I'm only 60, so have plenty of time to work things out! And thanks for giving me a little direction now and then so I don't stray too far off the path.
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Thanks guys!
Incidentally zamac is a zinc based alloy, rings like a bell, which IMO imparts quite a lot of HF zinginess to the sound, the cast iron platter is much more neutral sounding and significantly quiets down the mechanical symphony these tables emit.
They will never run as audibly silently as a modern direct drive or some conventional belt drives, but more to the point a properly restored and plinthed TD-124 will not contribute a significant amount of rumble and other noise as compared to even the best cutters out there. The only rumble I ever hear is actually from the cutters used to master the record I am listening to, some have virtually none while others are quite noisy. Interesting..
Incidentally zamac is a zinc based alloy, rings like a bell, which IMO imparts quite a lot of HF zinginess to the sound, the cast iron platter is much more neutral sounding and significantly quiets down the mechanical symphony these tables emit.
They will never run as audibly silently as a modern direct drive or some conventional belt drives, but more to the point a properly restored and plinthed TD-124 will not contribute a significant amount of rumble and other noise as compared to even the best cutters out there. The only rumble I ever hear is actually from the cutters used to master the record I am listening to, some have virtually none while others are quite noisy. Interesting..
kevinkr - The specific alloy is news to me, so thanks for the info. Do you listen with cans? I do fairly often, as it's necessary when I'm working on an audio file sourced from vinyl. I happened upon one record the other day where one side had the oddest noise, apparent in the run-in and I equated it with the cutter head. I'm very attuned to things like 60 cycle hum, can tell when it happened in production vs something's screwed up in my gear. This was a new one on me. I'd call it the electronic equivalent of fingers on a chalkboard, a squealing sound. Very odd indeed. The album had other odd troubles I'd equate with a bad job in mastering or pressing. While I'm used to occasionally getting bleed through for one revolution prior to the beginning of a track, this album not only had it present for 2-3 revs prior to, on songs that had a fairly strong, abrupt end, I caught it there too.
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I live in a cans free world, except when it comes to my iPod. My system outclasses any headphones I have owned so far and I really like speakers in a room.
Very probably that there was an issue with the mastering amplifiers, something oscillating in the chain when the master was cut and no one noticed.
Unfortunately pre-post echo can be a way of life on vinyl, I can hear it quite easily on some of my recordings, a few singles cut on 12" disks with very wide groove spacings seem to exhibit this to a much lesser extent.
Tape print through is often implicated as well which is why I guess tails out storage is important for masters.
Very probably that there was an issue with the mastering amplifiers, something oscillating in the chain when the master was cut and no one noticed.
Unfortunately pre-post echo can be a way of life on vinyl, I can hear it quite easily on some of my recordings, a few singles cut on 12" disks with very wide groove spacings seem to exhibit this to a much lesser extent.
Tape print through is often implicated as well which is why I guess tails out storage is important for masters.
Kevinkr - undoubtedly my system is much better than my headphones too (that's not saying much), but when working on a file on the laptop, it's really my only option. Besides, if I were able to pipe it through the system, I'd be restricted to working when my wife is out of the house!
I hadn't thought of tape print-through. That wouldn't be the case on this particular album, which was produced digitally in the late 80's, a Liz Story album post her Windham Hill period I guess you'd say. But my time cutting audio for commercials back in the 70's did give me a little knowledge of what it means to work with tape. And I remember plenty of "party tapes" put on stuff so thin it was a cryin' shame. Rather wish I still had some of those tapes though.
I hadn't thought of tape print-through. That wouldn't be the case on this particular album, which was produced digitally in the late 80's, a Liz Story album post her Windham Hill period I guess you'd say. But my time cutting audio for commercials back in the 70's did give me a little knowledge of what it means to work with tape. And I remember plenty of "party tapes" put on stuff so thin it was a cryin' shame. Rather wish I still had some of those tapes though.
Genemi - What little reading I've done on the subject does suggest while that may have become the norm once computers were available, it wasn't during the heyday of vinyl. I base that on reading an article on one of the new labels, one that does new recordings and re-masters. There was a mention of outfitting an old lathe with computer control, so my assumption is the rig didn't have it initially. I'd say that's part of why the best master cutters were regarded as artists. Wally Traudt is one name that comes to mind.
Missouricatman,
Actually, I attended recording Engineering back in the late seventies/early 80's, and we were told that many cutters would manually change the groove spacing while listening. Of course, this does need some talent, and familiarity with the material.
BTW you can call me Gene if you wish, that will make it easier.
Actually, I attended recording Engineering back in the late seventies/early 80's, and we were told that many cutters would manually change the groove spacing while listening. Of course, this does need some talent, and familiarity with the material.
BTW you can call me Gene if you wish, that will make it easier.
Hi Gene,
I don't think I've read anything regarding just how decisions were made in the mastering process. I figured the best cutters had the experience to do a pretty good job taking into account the type of source material and length. I can see where some changes on the fly could be made, I suppose based on the source level. A quiet track would get handled differently from one that almost pegs the meters, so to speak.
Your time in school would have been after the time I spent working in radio & TV, by the way, though only by a few years. I never did learn the real nuts and bolts that you did, though today I wish I had. I did rely on some pretty talented engineers and gained a lot of respect for what they did.
Jim
I don't think I've read anything regarding just how decisions were made in the mastering process. I figured the best cutters had the experience to do a pretty good job taking into account the type of source material and length. I can see where some changes on the fly could be made, I suppose based on the source level. A quiet track would get handled differently from one that almost pegs the meters, so to speak.
Your time in school would have been after the time I spent working in radio & TV, by the way, though only by a few years. I never did learn the real nuts and bolts that you did, though today I wish I had. I did rely on some pretty talented engineers and gained a lot of respect for what they did.
Jim
Strangely enough quite a bit of my very recent vinyl also has the pre-echo phenomena, and most of this material was certainly digitally mastered. I suspect many of the current mastering plants are not equipped with computer controlled cutters, further I would suspect with the emphasis on pure analog pathways these days that many lathes that were previously so equipped no longer are. To the best of my knowledge the analog signal was digitized and fed to a digital delay line, while also being analyzed in parallel by a computer and then converted back to analog and fed to the cutter after the pitch was adjusted to accommodate.. Note that the quantization was probably <16 bits and under 44kHz on a lot of these systems although I don't know the specifics.
Interesting discussion.
Apparently a lot of the best masters were done by people who manually rode the gain during mastering and adjusted cutter pitch as needed during the cutting, a real art form..
Interesting discussion.
Apparently a lot of the best masters were done by people who manually rode the gain during mastering and adjusted cutter pitch as needed during the cutting, a real art form..
Kevin -
What this discussion reveals, I think, is that today there are probably only a handful of people who fully understand and have mastered the cutting process. Yes, as Gene said, computer control can be used, probably is used in many plants, but I seriously doubt they're any better than the person who programs them. It's not a lost art, but probably pretty close to being so. Some masters best thought of as having been cut by people who aren't, but one day hopefully will be.
Ok, so after saying all that, I did a simple search and came up with these links. Old news to Gene, I'm sure. Certainly raised my awareness though.
This is pretty simple, but still interesting.
Vinyl - STERLING SOUND
The next one has some comments by the current crop of vinyl mastering engineers. One in particular noted that while they are seeing an uptick in business, they're limited by both equipment and the number of qualified mastering engineers. Reading this, I note we've got two camps out there - the houses for whom vinyl is either fairly new or a subset of what they do, and the houses where cutting lacquer has been their bread and butter for decades. I'm sure there are good mastering engineers on both sides, but I'd tend to have more confidence in the latter.
Vinyl Mastering Outlook: Can Lathes Keep up the Pace in 2013? : SonicScoop – Creative, Technical & Business Connections For NYC?s Music & Sound Community
I was particularly struck by the comment of one engineer that some artists are starting to take into account some of the limitations of vinyl into their music, i.e. track length is once again becoming a consideration. Nothing did more to hurt the quality of vinyl I think than the move to cram as much as possible onto a side. This may not be carved in stone, but in general it seems to me that more than 18 minutes and you're starting to push it.
And this one has passages that note the difference in cutter heads. One passage jumped out at me.
"Even with this, though, the mastering engineer is constantly juggling signal processing versus recording time versus groove pitch. Most systems today automatically control the groove pitch, although an expert engineer can override them to some extent and make constant tweaks to get that last bit of performance out."
- Mastering for Vinyl : Recording Magazine -
I guess it should be said that while I'm quite interested in this discussion, it probably warrants its own thread.
What this discussion reveals, I think, is that today there are probably only a handful of people who fully understand and have mastered the cutting process. Yes, as Gene said, computer control can be used, probably is used in many plants, but I seriously doubt they're any better than the person who programs them. It's not a lost art, but probably pretty close to being so. Some masters best thought of as having been cut by people who aren't, but one day hopefully will be.
Ok, so after saying all that, I did a simple search and came up with these links. Old news to Gene, I'm sure. Certainly raised my awareness though.
This is pretty simple, but still interesting.
Vinyl - STERLING SOUND
The next one has some comments by the current crop of vinyl mastering engineers. One in particular noted that while they are seeing an uptick in business, they're limited by both equipment and the number of qualified mastering engineers. Reading this, I note we've got two camps out there - the houses for whom vinyl is either fairly new or a subset of what they do, and the houses where cutting lacquer has been their bread and butter for decades. I'm sure there are good mastering engineers on both sides, but I'd tend to have more confidence in the latter.
Vinyl Mastering Outlook: Can Lathes Keep up the Pace in 2013? : SonicScoop – Creative, Technical & Business Connections For NYC?s Music & Sound Community
I was particularly struck by the comment of one engineer that some artists are starting to take into account some of the limitations of vinyl into their music, i.e. track length is once again becoming a consideration. Nothing did more to hurt the quality of vinyl I think than the move to cram as much as possible onto a side. This may not be carved in stone, but in general it seems to me that more than 18 minutes and you're starting to push it.
And this one has passages that note the difference in cutter heads. One passage jumped out at me.
"Even with this, though, the mastering engineer is constantly juggling signal processing versus recording time versus groove pitch. Most systems today automatically control the groove pitch, although an expert engineer can override them to some extent and make constant tweaks to get that last bit of performance out."
- Mastering for Vinyl : Recording Magazine -
I guess it should be said that while I'm quite interested in this discussion, it probably warrants its own thread.
Hello everyone,
has anyone tried to change the bearing of the idler wheel? I've found an Ebay seller from Spain, who sells a replacement bearing with a very cheap price. It would very useful for me to reduce the noise, coming out from the wheel. How should the bearing be changed? Do I need a special tool or what?
Cheers
Maurizio
has anyone tried to change the bearing of the idler wheel? I've found an Ebay seller from Spain, who sells a replacement bearing with a very cheap price. It would very useful for me to reduce the noise, coming out from the wheel. How should the bearing be changed? Do I need a special tool or what?
Cheers
Maurizio
