Restoring and Improving A Thorens TD-124 MKII - Page 70 - diyAudio
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Old 12th April 2013, 06:21 PM   #691
kevinkr is offline kevinkr  United States
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And a proper running TD-124 in the proper plinth is quiet enough - generally below the cutter noise floor in my limited experience so that nothing further is required.

It's a matter of what the dominant noise source is, and I've found it is usually the recording, not the TD-124.. I had the use an SME 20 for a while which is substantially quieter than the TD-124 in measurements and practice, but it did not leave me with the impression that the 124 was not quiet enough to do the job just an unobtrusively in use.
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Old 12th April 2013, 06:26 PM   #692
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My TD124 is quieter than my Garrard 301, but it depends upon the tonearm configuration. In my experience, it is possible to get the TD124 to be amazingly quiet, or annoyingly noisy, depending upon which tonearm I am using, and how it is set up.
Anyway, I'm sure I'll manage to get the 301 to be quiet, as well.
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Old 12th April 2013, 06:50 PM   #693
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kevinkr - While I've not experienced a restored TD 124 yet, my experience recording from the much more noisy Dual 1219 has taught me quite a bit, since part of my routine is to pull a spectrogram on every recording so I can decide how much to roll off the low end. I've got some idea of where the noise floor of the turntable is, but generally the vinyl is above it and the difference between the best and worst vinyl is well, huge, as I'm sure you know. That's not to say the turntable rumble isn't an issue. it is, regardless of whether I can see it on a spectrogram.

Because I often pull spectrograms at lead-in, mid-point, and run-out, I'm pretty familiar with how much worse that first :30 can be compared to the rest of the disk and can certainly understand why many use a stabilizer ring - something I can't employ on the Dual.

There was a time when I tried using a noise filter instead of a low shelf filter, but there's simply too much variation for it to be very effective and it certainly can mess with the music in some very unpleasant ways.

While I am using a low-shelf filter, my hope is to get the TD 124 to the point where it's not necessary. I'm of the opinion that any vibration that makes it to the stylus introduces distortion that is there to stay, that no filter or noise canceling effect downstream is going to correct.
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Old 12th April 2013, 08:33 PM   #694
Nanook is offline Nanook  Canada
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[QUOTE]Nanook - OK I understand what you're saying. For me, the cost (time + money) for the benefit doesn't sound, pardon the pun, worth it. I'm the kind of guy who can't see much benefit in paying $3.00 for a record at an estate sale when, if I'm patient, I can pick it up for under a dollar U.S. at a thrift store - I'm that cheap!/QUOTE]

missouricatman: I guess the "brute force" suggestion does cost some money, but I think you might find the results more than minor. Sure $3 records are fun and can be enjoyable, but if one is interested in maximizing the performance in a frugal manner, I think you might be surprised on the benefit/$ spent in a similar suggestion: use your own data and record the difference of the input and the noise.

[QUOTE]And a proper running TD-124 in the proper plinth is quiet enough - generally below the cutter noise floor in my limited experience so that nothing further is required.

It's a matter of what the dominant noise source is, and I've found it is usually the recording, not the TD-124.. I had the use an SME 20 for a while which is substantially quieter than the TD-124 in measurements and practice, but it did not leave me with the impression that the 124 was not quiet enough to do the job just an unobtrusively in use./QUOTE]

kevinkr : I agree the dominant noise is often the noise floor of the media, but not all. And if one is recording (particularly ) using an inverse noise added to the signal should allow the the recorded signal to be an improvement. Not strictly suitable to analog playback on a turntable.

Of course the perceived level of noise is a personal observation, and I can can listen to a very high amount of noise and still enjoy the music coming from my system. Sometimes we train our selves to ignore what we don't want to hear (which is why some younger folks seem so obsessive about absolute quiet between tracks and somehow relate that to the quality of the recording or the media being used) and others can listen past the analog "artifacts" in a recording).

Quote:
While I've not experienced a restored TD 124 yet, my experience recording from the much more noisy Dual 1219 has taught me quite a bit, since part of my routine is to pull a spectrogram on every recording so I can decide how much to roll off the low end. I've got some idea of where the noise floor of the turntable is, but generally the vinyl is above it and the difference between the best and worst vinyl is well, huge, as I'm sure you know. That's not to say the turntable rumble isn't an issue. it is, regardless of whether I can see it on a spectrogram.

Because I often pull spectrograms at lead-in, mid-point, and run-out, I'm pretty familiar with how much worse that first :30 can be compared to the rest of the disk and can certainly understand why many use a stabilizer ring - something I can't employ on the Dual.

There was a time when I tried using a noise filter instead of a low shelf filter, but there's simply too much variation for it to be very effective and it certainly can mess with the music in some very unpleasant ways.
missouricatman: This is precisely why I suggested using an inverse noise function, as per a spectrum of it on the particular turntable being used.

[QUOTE]While I am using a low-shelf filter, my hope is to get the TD 124 to the point where it's not necessary. I'm of the opinion that any vibration that makes it to the stylus introduces distortion that is there to stay, that no filter or noise canceling effect downstream is going to correct./QUOTE]

missouricatman: Thus the approach I suggested was and is "brute force". It addresses the symptoms of noise, not the cause. And as you state no amount of filtering can fix a stylus that has been perturbed into a deflection that is not in the record grooves. The only way to deal with that is to minimize those deflections.
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Old 12th April 2013, 09:09 PM   #695
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Nanook - looking at your initial posting, perhaps the problem here is that you might view me as a "hobbyist" not an "enthusiast." It's difficult for me to justify the money I put into my "hobby" as it is - what with the number of home remodeling projects underway here. Another bit of evidence that I'm not an "enthusiast" is that despite having several replacement components for the TD124/II sitting in bags on a bench in the basement, I've yet to install them. Nor have I replaced the motor I purchased for my Dual 1249 (the original design's prone to failure). Then there's the Dual 1228 I picked up that likely only needs a cleaning/lube job before I could pass it on to someone who would appreciate it more than I might. I could go on and on, but the point is while I do have aspirations, I've got only so much ambition and more importantly, only so much money to put into such things.
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Old 20th April 2013, 07:27 AM   #696
vyju is offline vyju  India
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Hi,

The rubber mounting bushes "mushrooms" on my TD124 have become hard. I was thinking of ordering from Schopper when a friend mentioned these silicone isolation bushes available on Ebay.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Thorens-TD-1...a#ht_551wt_917

Has anyone tried these?Would these be an improvement over the original type "mushrooms" sold by Schopper?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Thorens-TD-1...a#ht_551wt_917



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Rajiv
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Old 20th April 2013, 02:08 PM   #697
kevinkr is offline kevinkr  United States
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There are a number of good motor mount bushings available on eBay. I have used several different suppliers all with generally similar results, all are much less expensive than Schopper.

There are also a number of suppliers on eBay of the chassis mounting bushings (mushrooms) most have not proven to be that satisfactory - here the Schopper bushings may be worth the money.

The links you provided don't work here so I can't look at what you were asking about.
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Old 20th April 2013, 02:24 PM   #698
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Are the bushings/mushrooms the ones with the ebay title "Thorens TD-124 Improved Plinth Mushrooms/Grommets?" The ones sold out of Pennsylvania? I've looked at them and wondered myself if they'd provide any advantage. Certainly a very different design from the original - four components instead of two, if you count the metal cap.
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Old 20th April 2013, 04:36 PM   #699
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Hi Rajiv,

as Kevin already said, there are many suppliers of those mushrooms; I've personally replaced mine with a set bought from a German shop on ebay. They fit well to the chassis and make a good job. Next month I will get a new set of gel bushing, the Geltec A-2 and I will try them on my chassis. The opinions about their efficiency are many: some people did get a big improvement in the isolation of vibration due to the motor, some did not appreciate any difference.

Cheers
Maurizio

P.S. Always in May I will receive a new idler wheel for the TD 124, designed from a supplier in Rome. I will post some information about it, if you're interested.
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Old 21st April 2013, 06:51 PM   #700
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Sorry, I made some confusion in my previous post; naturally the geltec bushing are intended to replace the motor grommets, not the mushrooms.

Maurizio
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