The upper platter scrapping noises I encountered were all due to wear in thrust pads and other problems I had with the bronze end cap I was using.
It sounds like you got some bad nylatron thrust pads, I've never seen anything like you described with the ones I used, but I did not get great coast down times with them either.
Try to get some thrust pads that are the same thickness as the original or you will need to adjust the platter brake mechanism.
As I've said I also like to drown my bearings in oil, I'm not in the 3 drop crowd.. lol
I like to think of the TD-124 more in terms of an 1970s British sports car (not that American cars were particularly good in that era), lots of fun but a total PITA to maintain and unlikely to stay fettled for any length of time at all.
It sounds like you got some bad nylatron thrust pads, I've never seen anything like you described with the ones I used, but I did not get great coast down times with them either.
Try to get some thrust pads that are the same thickness as the original or you will need to adjust the platter brake mechanism.
As I've said I also like to drown my bearings in oil, I'm not in the 3 drop crowd.. lol
I like to think of the TD-124 more in terms of an 1970s British sports car (not that American cars were particularly good in that era), lots of fun but a total PITA to maintain and unlikely to stay fettled for any length of time at all.
Thanks Kevin!
I have purchased new top rubber plates and silicon plates from Audiosilente , also their Teflon ptfe thrust plates and their idler wheel .i will start putting first the Teflon thrust plate and see coasting time .
After that I will check if old top discs are causing scraping noises. If yes then I will replace them with the new and check. There will be a difference to sound I think when I put new ones ,as the new fresh rubber materials will absorb noises more effectively than the old discs.
I think that if the thrust plate is thicker than it should be, then platter comes to higher position and the brake top plater lift mechanism does not lift it enough and scraping noises occur . Then there is need of adjustments of the mechanism ..
After that I will replace my good condition original idler wheel to that new style type from audiosilente and hear the difference. The manufacture claims that is silent ..so I have to check if is really silent. They put the same type to their tt that I saw at YouTube . It was interesting that even with an extra huge weight plate to their platter ,the tt was running as without any extra weight .So I took the decision to buy from them the parts.
I think that should be the procedure in order to have a clear picture of what every part will do to the tt. I think they will arrive late this week.
So soon my wife will see me again with all the well known specific tools , led magnifying glassed ,syringes and doctor's stethoscope ...for the ...tenth time this year ...
I seem like a doctor during an ..operation..You know that very well as you do same operations to the 124 !!
I have purchased new top rubber plates and silicon plates from Audiosilente , also their Teflon ptfe thrust plates and their idler wheel .i will start putting first the Teflon thrust plate and see coasting time .
After that I will check if old top discs are causing scraping noises. If yes then I will replace them with the new and check. There will be a difference to sound I think when I put new ones ,as the new fresh rubber materials will absorb noises more effectively than the old discs.
I think that if the thrust plate is thicker than it should be, then platter comes to higher position and the brake top plater lift mechanism does not lift it enough and scraping noises occur . Then there is need of adjustments of the mechanism ..
After that I will replace my good condition original idler wheel to that new style type from audiosilente and hear the difference. The manufacture claims that is silent ..so I have to check if is really silent. They put the same type to their tt that I saw at YouTube . It was interesting that even with an extra huge weight plate to their platter ,the tt was running as without any extra weight .So I took the decision to buy from them the parts.
I think that should be the procedure in order to have a clear picture of what every part will do to the tt. I think they will arrive late this week.
So soon my wife will see me again with all the well known specific tools , led magnifying glassed ,syringes and doctor's stethoscope ...for the ...tenth time this year ...
I seem like a doctor during an ..operation..You know that very well as you do same operations to the 124 !!
I got teflon thrust plate I made from some teflon sheet I had at home. MkII, iron cast platter - coasting time 145 seconds- cold, 130seconds after 2 hours of record playing.
Hi Vuki,
So with teflon you have very long coasting time and very good results!
Did you use nylatron before teflon? What about the coasting time before using the new teflon thrust plate ? What type of oil and quantity do you use?
Regards
Wow !! sealed !! !! Fantastic!
So... I am right then, it was a Jackpot Lotto!
Was the arm included ?
I like very much that kind of NOS nice items but is so very rare and extremely difficult to find....
Sometimes due to a coincidence you can find a lovely NOS item so very easily at the neighbor who does not want to have it at his basement or at his garage ..
Or to see it on the flea market where they sell anything unfamiliar. A friend of mine found a Garrard 401 NOS...at the flea market for 50 euros...or 75 $ .... I asked him if there was anything interesting there as that tt, and he told me no ..nothing familiar....,only some very bad condition 45 rpm and LP records ,used old cassette tapes ,used plastic toys and some used books the only unused was the 401 ..
!! Fantastic! So... I am right then, it was a Jackpot Lotto!
Was the arm included ?
I like very much that kind of NOS nice items but is so very rare and extremely difficult to find....
Sometimes due to a coincidence you can find a lovely NOS item so very easily at the neighbor who does not want to have it at his basement or at his garage ..
Or to see it on the flea market where they sell anything unfamiliar. A friend of mine found a Garrard 401 NOS...at the flea market for 50 euros...or 75 $ .... I asked him if there was anything interesting there as that tt, and he told me no ..nothing familiar....,only some very bad condition 45 rpm and LP records ,used old cassette tapes ,used plastic toys and some used books
the only unused was the 401 ..
It's unfortunate that Thorens chose to "dump" their less expensive Zamak subplatters on the USA market as standard equipment on the TD124 Mk II. I suspect they took advantage of overblown concerns regarding the cartridge destroying cast iron platter. The Zamak platter was clearly designed to reduce cost on the "budget" model TD 135. Owners may note that the Zamak platter mounting screws are closer to one another. This allows the platter mounting disc of the spindle to be smaller in diameter. Since the spindle is turned from solid stock the raw billet must be as at least as large in diameter as the mounting ring. A smaller billet represents substantially lower machining costs. I'd always wondered why the TD 135 had a 10mm spindle bearing instead of the TD 124's 14mm. What, The bearing sleeves were 2 cents cheaper? I now realize that the 10mm spindle allowed the platter mounting screws to be closer and thus the platter mounting ring to be smaller.
This brings up the Thorens's designers decision to use nylon bearing sleeves and thrust plate. Clearly this was conscious decision based on quality not cost. Bronze bearings are used for all other similar functions on the turntable. They must have thought the nylon bearings were smoother/quieter/ better. Reality intruded with speed control problems, so in later years they switched to inferior (in their minds) bronze bearings. However, they retained the nylon thrust plate. I think the designers would laugh over the current obsession with low friction and long coast times. They were concerned with smooth quiet operation and perhaps isolation that nylon promised.
This brings up the Thorens's designers decision to use nylon bearing sleeves and thrust plate. Clearly this was conscious decision based on quality not cost. Bronze bearings are used for all other similar functions on the turntable. They must have thought the nylon bearings were smoother/quieter/ better. Reality intruded with speed control problems, so in later years they switched to inferior (in their minds) bronze bearings. However, they retained the nylon thrust plate. I think the designers would laugh over the current obsession with low friction and long coast times. They were concerned with smooth quiet operation and perhaps isolation that nylon promised.
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Echoes of my own thoughts on these matters.
Note that a variant of the zamac platter (no strobe ring and a proper machined finish on the outer edge) and 10mm bearing/spindle assy were also used on the TD-121. This short lived model also had a re-engineered 117V/60Hz only version of the E50, and had most of the parts required for the speed change mechanism deleted, making the TD-121 a single speed table which could be manually set to any of the 4 speeds supported by the 124, but this rather unfortunately required tools and platter removal to do so.. Most people presumably used these to play 33rpm LPs only.
It's sort of a travesty of the 124..
Note that a variant of the zamac platter (no strobe ring and a proper machined finish on the outer edge) and 10mm bearing/spindle assy were also used on the TD-121. This short lived model also had a re-engineered 117V/60Hz only version of the E50, and had most of the parts required for the speed change mechanism deleted, making the TD-121 a single speed table which could be manually set to any of the 4 speeds supported by the 124, but this rather unfortunately required tools and platter removal to do so.. Most people presumably used these to play 33rpm LPs only.
It's sort of a travesty of the 124..
re reverse motion at end of spin-down...
I can duplicate this phenomenon over here. To do it all I have to do is find an old nylatron thrust plate with a fairly sized dimple from the thrust action. Install that, not worrying about the thrust ball finding exact center of the dimple.
Assembled this way I can get a reduced time during power off spin-down capped off with a very slight reverse motion at end. To eliminate this reverse motion, I simply installed a new thrust pad (any material) and the reverse motion at spin-down did not repeat.
I think this suggests that the thrust ball was making slightly off center contact with the well worn dimple in the pad. This causing a side-thrust action at the bearing. Not only would it be the cause for the reverse motion observed, but should also result in extra bearing friction to the bushing sleeves (sideways loading/unloading) and result in increased wear at the bearing sleeve. If left this way, eventually the wear pattern would likely become egg-shaped on both shaft and sleeve.
So, I would interpret this to be a cautionary note suggesting that we avoid re-using a worn thrust pads. Always install new.
fwiw it is very easy to make new thrust pads out of materials of your choice. I have purchased thrust pad material in sheet form, thickness specified by seller. I cut the pads using a plug cutter in a drill press. See wood working stores for the different varieties of plug cutters available.
for materials I have experimented with Delrin and Teflon-infused Delrin. I prefer the Teflon-infused Delrin. I see longer wear/smaller dimples using this material. I get mine from McMaster-Carr. I'm sure there are other suppliers out there. Fwiw I never would have considered using pure Teflon (PTFE) on a TD124. Material is too soft and should not hold up for long under the weight of a TD124 platter.
-Steve
I can duplicate this phenomenon over here. To do it all I have to do is find an old nylatron thrust plate with a fairly sized dimple from the thrust action. Install that, not worrying about the thrust ball finding exact center of the dimple.
Assembled this way I can get a reduced time during power off spin-down capped off with a very slight reverse motion at end. To eliminate this reverse motion, I simply installed a new thrust pad (any material) and the reverse motion at spin-down did not repeat.
I think this suggests that the thrust ball was making slightly off center contact with the well worn dimple in the pad. This causing a side-thrust action at the bearing. Not only would it be the cause for the reverse motion observed, but should also result in extra bearing friction to the bushing sleeves (sideways loading/unloading) and result in increased wear at the bearing sleeve. If left this way, eventually the wear pattern would likely become egg-shaped on both shaft and sleeve.
So, I would interpret this to be a cautionary note suggesting that we avoid re-using a worn thrust pads. Always install new.
fwiw it is very easy to make new thrust pads out of materials of your choice. I have purchased thrust pad material in sheet form, thickness specified by seller. I cut the pads using a plug cutter in a drill press. See wood working stores for the different varieties of plug cutters available.
for materials I have experimented with Delrin and Teflon-infused Delrin. I prefer the Teflon-infused Delrin. I see longer wear/smaller dimples using this material. I get mine from McMaster-Carr. I'm sure there are other suppliers out there. Fwiw I never would have considered using pure Teflon (PTFE) on a TD124. Material is too soft and should not hold up for long under the weight of a TD124 platter.
-Steve
New Coils from Simone Lucchetti
The new coils arrived yesterday via registered mail. Exactly two weeks from ship date. That's fair time coming from Europe, btw.
More photos:
Above photo: the old and the new side by side. The new coils are a bit larger in dimension and will fit tighter into the core.
I followed Simone's instruction pdf and took care to dress off any sharp edges in the core parts where the coils come into physical contact with the core. I used a small fine cut file in combination with 400-grit sand paper to very slightly round the once sharp edges.
Once the motor was assembled the next task was to install into the TD124 chassis, then solder the leads coming from the coils onto the voltage terminal of the Td124. This coil set duplicates the windings of the original E50 and offers operation at 3 voltages just like the original. I used a photo taken of the AC terminal from another TD124 as a map for soldering .
Everything went without a hitch. I'm now spinning records.
other notes: I have not found it necessary to adjust the eddy magnet/ pulley gap distance.
I'll operate the player this way for a couple of days, watching closely, and then write down more observations to the page at my site where I'm making notes of my sn 13943 project.
13943
So far so good.
-Steve
The new coils arrived yesterday via registered mail. Exactly two weeks from ship date. That's fair time coming from Europe, btw.
More photos:
Above photo: the old and the new side by side. The new coils are a bit larger in dimension and will fit tighter into the core.
I followed Simone's instruction pdf and took care to dress off any sharp edges in the core parts where the coils come into physical contact with the core. I used a small fine cut file in combination with 400-grit sand paper to very slightly round the once sharp edges.
Once the motor was assembled the next task was to install into the TD124 chassis, then solder the leads coming from the coils onto the voltage terminal of the Td124. This coil set duplicates the windings of the original E50 and offers operation at 3 voltages just like the original. I used a photo taken of the AC terminal from another TD124 as a map for soldering .
Everything went without a hitch. I'm now spinning records.
other notes: I have not found it necessary to adjust the eddy magnet/ pulley gap distance.
I'll operate the player this way for a couple of days, watching closely, and then write down more observations to the page at my site where I'm making notes of my sn 13943 project.
13943
So far so good.
-Steve
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I'm having thoughts about powder coating. Just look at some of the current mag-wheel finishes in use today. There is a "black chrome" powder coat finish that I like quite a lot. It comes across as a kind of chrome but with a black glow coming up from below. Very eye catching.
but......Also......For 13943 I'm tempted to leave this one bare metal. But then to finish things I'll need to have a plinth with a finish to either match or contrast with. Have you ever looked at some of the furniture designs at Restoration Hardware? I bought a couple of Lp picture frames from them several years back. Since then they've been sending their catalogs. fun pictures to look through.
In particular, the 2012 spring catalog has some chairs, desks, coffee tables with vintage aircraft aluminum exteriors. you know, solid rivet construction in bare aluminum. Like a P51 mustang.....naked. So, I think I need a plinth like that for 13943..
-Steve
Black chrome is one look I've thought of. Around here, plenty of custom bike shops that do powder coating, so no problem there. Wonder if powder coating has any sound deadening characteristics.
I haven't looked at Restoration Hardware for a long time. Thanks for the idea.
I think if I did bare metal I'd be tempted to come up with some finish treatment - bead or sand blasting or something to get a little texture. Not the vintage aircraft look you're envisioning, but I'd be worried about every little thing showing on the surface otherwise. Also, while I very, very seldom get any cleaning fluids near any of the turntables (don't ask me about my frankenstein RCM), I'd wonder how any liquids would affect it over time. I gather you don't consider that an issue?
I haven't looked at Restoration Hardware for a long time. Thanks for the idea.
I think if I did bare metal I'd be tempted to come up with some finish treatment - bead or sand blasting or something to get a little texture. Not the vintage aircraft look you're envisioning, but I'd be worried about every little thing showing on the surface otherwise. Also, while I very, very seldom get any cleaning fluids near any of the turntables (don't ask me about my frankenstein RCM), I'd wonder how any liquids would affect it over time. I gather you don't consider that an issue?
I'm having thoughts about powder coating. Just look at some of the current mag-wheel finishes in use today. There is a "black chrome" powder coat finish that I like quite a lot. It comes across as a kind of chrome but with a black glow coming up from below. Very eye catching.
but......Also......For 13943 I'm tempted to leave this one bare metal. But then to finish things I'll need to have a plinth with a finish to either match or contrast with. Have you ever looked at some of the furniture designs at Restoration Hardware? I bought a couple of Lp picture frames from them several years back. Since then they've been sending their catalogs. fun pictures to look through.
In particular, the 2012 spring catalog has some chairs, desks, coffee tables with vintage aircraft aluminum exteriors. you know, solid rivet construction in bare aluminum. Like a P51 mustang.....naked. So, I think I need a plinth like that for 13943..
-Steve
OK, I just had to look at various metal texture options and a thought occurred to me. A translucent, tinted (very pale blue comes to mind for me) enamel. Something that lets the metal show through, but lets you get a look similar to anodizing. I just looked at a how-to on anodizing. Seems like a possibility too.
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This is probably a little off the trend but about the original finish and what I think it might actually be.
My hunch is that the original coating came from an aircraft paints catalog. Think epoxy primers and exteriors.... circa 1958. Very tough finish.
re: powder coating pale blue slightly translucent. Nice idea.
-Steve