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Old 28th January 2012, 05:42 PM   #501
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Default more belt stuff

The belt from Lawrence Blaire at Octave Audio arrived early this week. I think it was Tuesday. This is a belt from Schopper in Switzerland which is said by them to be their own design. Similar dimension to the original Thorens belt but supposedly with an improved material, which you expect given the 50 years that have passed since the time of the original TD124.

Today I took the 1yr old Thorens Logo belt off the TD124 today and cleaned the pulleys by Q-tip/alcohol while running the motor. There was considerable black residue build up on the Q-tip after cleaning just the motor pulley. This is after just 1 week ago having thoroughly cleaned all pulleys including the belt. The driven step pulley wasn't so dirty.

while there I happened to notice some black residue accumulation on the cast chassis beneath the belt path. Also, the magnet (eddy brake) was coated heavily in belt residue. These two areas had one year to accumulate the stuff.

That Thorens OEM belt really does shed.

Back to the Schopper belt which arrived earlier this week.
I compared it to the 1yr old Thorens Logo belt. Belt lengths were comparable and within 1/16th inch of each other. Width was also comparable. Belt strength/tension seemed noticeably stronger on the Schopper belt in comparison to the Thorens belt. But not nearly as strong as were those Florida ebay belts.

So after cleaning all the pulleys once again, and also wiping down the perimeter of the idler tire, then cleaning the inside rim of the driven flywheel with alcohol, I installed the brand new Schopper belt.

Upon cold start up, I noticed that the TD124 came up to speed normally but when speed stabilized the stobe indicated a slightly slow pace. I assume this to be due to the added belt tension of the Schopper belt. Solution; adjust eddy brake to correct nominal rpm and then see how it goes for the rest of the day.

I wish I could do a thorough analysis of all the belts I currently have. Mainly I'm interested in belt strength/elasticity and the chemical composition of each belt. The elasticity I can buy a gage for, the chemical analysis remains unknown to me. Too bad each belt doesn't come with a cert that details its material make-up.

Other dimensions like width, length and cross-section thickness can be measured by calipers.
Click the image to open in full size.

Like this for length of the Thorens Logo belt (logo not seen in the photo). But the calipers easily impart some stretch against the belt so one needs to be sensitive to that while making sure that the belt is at full length.

-Steve

Last edited by user510; 28th January 2012 at 05:53 PM.
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Old 28th January 2012, 09:05 PM   #502
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I'm staying tuned, plan eventually to evaluate the Thakker branded belt as well as the Schopper unless others have particularly bad experiences with one or the other.

So far the FLA belts have worked pretty well for me, but given that he may gets them from multiple sources the belts I have may be different from those others have tried. They run reasonably quiet and don't shed much..

Talc quiets all of these belts down, but the effect does not last that long. Polishing the pulleys so that the belt separates cleanly from the pulley seems to make a pretty big difference as well. Mine has remained consistent in noise level over the past 9 months or so.
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Old 29th January 2012, 06:19 PM   #503
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Default more belt stuff; Schopper belt

This is a continuation of observations about belt discrepancies and the TD124. Having previously used the oem Thorens belt (with Thorens Logo and available through the Thorens dealer distributor network) for a 1 year period and then finding an excessive rubber residue build-up on both pulley surfaces and, additionally, heavy rubber dust accumulation in the general area of the belt path. This residue problem, which I find to be exceptional and abnormal for a TD124 drive belt, eventually led to speed consistency problems that became, ultimately, slightly audible......and more so visual while observing the strobe. (not rock solid)

After clean-up and maintenance which is described in a post 1 week earlier:
Restoring and Improving A Thorens TD-124 MKII

Now, having used the Schopper oem belt for a 1 day period I can report that the TT is behaving normally and that it sounds "on song", so to speak.

My intention is to remove the Schopper belt next week-end and examine the deck for evidence of excessive belt shedding. The 1 week period seems useful because that is how long I left the Thorens oem belt in this last period and then observed, again, abnormal belt residue accumulation on the drive pulley.

I should note that I believe the Thorens oem belt to be optimal in all other areas of performance, and in particular elasticity / tension strength. If only it did not shed so much of itself all over the chassis of the TD124.

As noted earlier, I thought the Schopper belt to be a bit stronger in elasticity/tension when compared to the 1 yr old Thorens belt but not excessively so, like some other ebay belts we've all seen. In the meantime I seem to be getting normal speed behavior out of my refurbished TD124 (early model) and it sounds now as good as ever.

Let's see what it looks like after a week.

-Steve
PS:
I should point out that ultill this last revelation with the oem Thorens belt, I had considered the TD124 to be rather belt tolerant. As in being generally unaffected by minor differences between different belts and their variation in elasticity/tension strength.

In comparison, and prior to, that, I have observed the effects that different belts have had on the performance of other models of Thorens belt drive players, In particular the TD150. In that case a belt which imparts too much tension against the drive pulley can cause the tiny TD150 motor to vibrate excessively into the motor plate. And this being clearly audible by means of a stethoscope held against the top motor plate, to which that motor is solidly mounted. Sound suffers in a case like that. To be sure correct belt length and tension is absolutely critical to getting the best possible sonic performance out of a suspended belt drive player like the TD150 and, I'd imagine, many other makes/models we all know that use a similar architecture.

Last edited by user510; 29th January 2012 at 06:36 PM.
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Old 29th January 2012, 10:01 PM   #504
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Steve, if you incorporated the belt tensioner on the return side, you should still get the filtering ability. But, the possible downside is the possible extra noise, expense and complication of such an addition.
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Old 29th January 2012, 10:02 PM   #505
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geneml View Post
Hi User,


Please keep us posted on this belt, I am interested.

Where did you get it?


Gene
Restoring and Improving A Thorens TD-124 MKII

See above link to a post from last week. These threads tend to progress as we go and so for someone to come in cold and get the context, you'd have to back up a week or two, or month or two, then read the previous posts in order to get the full picture.

At the linked thread, also note the quote and email text from Schopper.

-Steve
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Old 29th January 2012, 10:34 PM   #506
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Default ok

Quote:
Originally Posted by user510 View Post
Restoring and Improving A Thorens TD-124 MKII

See above link to a post from last week. These threads tend to progress as we go and so for someone to come in cold and get the context, you'd have to back up a week or two, or month or two, then read the previous posts in order to get the full picture.

At the linked thread, also note the quote and email text from Schopper.

-Steve
Steve, my apologies, but I have been here for years now. (see page 22).

Oh, I also also have talked to Schopper.


Regards,

Gene
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Old 29th January 2012, 11:01 PM   #507
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geneml View Post
Steve, if you incorporated the belt tensioner on the return side, you should still get the filtering ability. But, the possible downside is the possible extra noise, expense and complication of such an addition.
Well, a spliced together loop of recording tape, or mylar, even though it is rigid/non compliant at the forces in play, could exhibit some cog filtering if the suspension incorporated into a tensioner pulley system were compliant enough. In fact, now that I consider the possibility you point out, it could be a viable solution to the problem of belt creep in a belt driven TT.

Exhibit "A":
Click the image to open in full size.
The Artemis Labs Schroder SA-1 turntable.

In the application seen above, that seems an intriguing solution. But on a TD124 I wonder how much value can be gained from such a challenging complication.

-Steve
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Old 29th January 2012, 11:05 PM   #508
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geneml View Post
Steve, my apologies, but I have been here for years now. (see page 22).

Oh, I also also have talked to Schopper.


Regards,

Gene
Gotya.
I see you deleted that post.
I did not mean to seem short on patience. I miss some of the context in these threads all the time myself.

-Steve
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Old 30th January 2012, 01:22 AM   #509
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Default Ok

Quote:
Originally Posted by user510 View Post
Gotya.
I see you deleted that post.
I did not mean to seem short on patience. I miss some of the context in these threads all the time myself.

-Steve
Steve, your right, I did delete it. I did read the post you referenced, but didn't think of that when I posted. All is good, I love the TD 124 discussions here, we all can stand to learn something.


Regards,

Gene
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Old 4th February 2012, 07:42 PM   #510
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Default more belt stuff; Schopper belt 1 week in use

Click the image to open in full size.

Here's the Schopper belt being measured for length after 1 week in use.
It appears to measure slightly longer than the Thorens oem belt that I posted a photo of last week.

Click the image to open in full size.

A photo of the Schopper belt still on the TD124 after 1 week in use.

Click the image to open in full size.

With belt removed. Drive pulley is being cleaned by a Q-tip soaked in alcohol and held against the running pulley.

Click the image to open in full size.

Looking at the Q-tip for evidence of residue after cleaning the drive pulley only.

Click the image to open in full size.

Looking at the Q-tip for evidence of residue after cleaning both drive and driven pulleys. There was some accumulation of residue on the larger driven pulley. Not much.

1 week in use.

Click the image to open in full size.

With the Schopper belt turned inside-out we can see the track of the belt path over both drive and driven pulley crowns. No evidence of wear just yet. Just evidence of having been in use.

I can say that over the past week the TD124 has behaved normally in terms of speed consistency and drive train noise.

So far so good with the Schopper belt. It doesn't seem to do anything negative after 1 week. I'd like it even better if it did not cost $35.00 USD. But after having paid dearly for the Thorens belt I have to like this one better.

This Schopper belt was acquired through Lawrence Blair at Octave Audio USA. The belt can also be acquired directly from Schopper in Switzerland at their website.

-Steve
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