Our conclusions agree..
Just goes to show that even well respected authorities on the subject (including former employees of company in question) don't always get it right. I do believe that it would be worthwhile to get a slightly longer belt for 50Hz operation despite the fact that Thorens did not offer one. I'd probably try a turntablebasics.com FM12.2 on a unit operating at 50Hz - noting of course that I have not tried this, and the recommended belt is the slightly shorter FM12.1.
In my case I have an absolutely original belt to compare against, so I am pretty confident in my conclusions.
On a different subject I am again having scraping main bearing issues, and that is because I wicked out the oil and replaced it, and then apparently did not add enough oil to the well. Note that it should be filled to the top of the lower bushing at minimum and perhaps slightly beyond, also it will not seat immediately when you do this.. (Maybe 10 minutes or so)
The pundits were mostly right about removing the platter. It is far easier to align the platter than you would think, and removing and reinserting the spindle is not that good for the bearing as it may develop leaks, and the spindle may get scratched.
Yup. That is what I intend to do but I was hoping for a more authoritative reply from someone who has measured it or has some factory specs.
The bearing service kit I bought does not include this item although the provider has agreed to throw in a used but excellent condition ball. However, considering the time and money investment, a new silicon nitride ball seems warranted.
Kal
I've learned the hard way that there is a surprising amount of rubbish information out there on this table. I think the best thing to do is to get several different sizes and see what fits best.. In any event it is not too critical from what little I have been able to figure out. Your motor and TT may differ in some ways from mine so again a grain of salt is in order..
Useful French language site with many useful parts for the TD-124 here:
Entretien Platines vinyles - Articles - FRED'HiFi
The proprietor does speak English..
Belts, ball bearings, etc.
Entretien Platines vinyles - Articles - FRED'HiFi
The proprietor does speak English..
Belts, ball bearings, etc.
It's Alive!
Using some of my now copious free time I spent a few hours tweaking the table and then mounted one of my fleet of restored SME 3009 Series II arms on a Brazilian Cherry armboard - my god is that stuff hard! Success though with a minimum of fuss. Finding a compromise mounting position for the arm was more of a problem as I was not convinced that the commonly seen mounting approach with this arm on this board was right. I was not able to mount it the way SME recommends, but I got close enough and the geometry is good. Yes it's playing right now.. LOL
Surprisingly the original Stanton 681 cartridge is still in working order.. And it sounds ok, it however is NOT a good match to the SME arm it was in..
Next I swapped headshells for one with an AT120E in it and installed it on the floor near enough to the phono stage for the cables to reach. It sounded somewhat promising so I swapped in the ZU/Denon DL-103 and set up the arm properly for it. This actually allows a comparison between the SME 20 and the TD-124.. I'm still thinking about what I am hearing but a quick summary follows:
It is rather sobering to realize that the last record this deck played was 4 decades in the past. As I listen more and the deck warms up, I am not sure that it is not significantly better than the SME any more in some indefinable way. I can certainly live with this level of performance.
Some thought provoking comments, take note that many of the self appointed experts on the NET aren't. I have never gotten more conflicting and incorrect information about something off of the net, and former Thorens employees are not necessarily right either. Use your own judgment!
Something else quite sobering to realize is that someone designed a table 50+ yrs that would easily embarrass a few rather more expensive modern tables. Again it hammers home the point (in my mind at least) that in terms of performance at least there has been very little improvement at the cutting edge, perhaps at best it became a bit more economically attainable.
Edit: I'm listening to it, and I guess I will just say for once the hype surrounding this thing is justified.
Using some of my now copious free time I spent a few hours tweaking the table and then mounted one of my fleet of restored SME 3009 Series II arms on a Brazilian Cherry armboard - my god is that stuff hard! Success though with a minimum of fuss. Finding a compromise mounting position for the arm was more of a problem as I was not convinced that the commonly seen mounting approach with this arm on this board was right. I was not able to mount it the way SME recommends, but I got close enough and the geometry is good. Yes it's playing right now.. LOL
Surprisingly the original Stanton 681 cartridge is still in working order.. And it sounds ok, it however is NOT a good match to the SME arm it was in..
Next I swapped headshells for one with an AT120E in it and installed it on the floor near enough to the phono stage for the cables to reach. It sounded somewhat promising so I swapped in the ZU/Denon DL-103 and set up the arm properly for it. This actually allows a comparison between the SME 20 and the TD-124.. I'm still thinking about what I am hearing but a quick summary follows:
- It's mechanically quiet, no rumble is audible even in this super light plinth. I am using the gel gummi muffins I purchased from JEC965 on eBay.
- The noise floor is pretty low, perhaps in theory the SME is quieter, but I am not sure I can hear it.
- The deck is very resistant to disturbances to the plinth and whatever is supporting it.
- It is a bit more forward and harder sounding than the SME 20. (No longer sure about this either.)
- It has a lot of drive, rythm, pace, whatever you would like to call it, and probably equals the SME in this regard.
- It images well, but maybe the SME does this a bit better. (or not...)
- I expect it will probably clobber the typical Linn or AR in its sleep. It is a very competent performer in current terms.
- Speed stability is excellent, glad I rebuilt the motor..
It is rather sobering to realize that the last record this deck played was 4 decades in the past. As I listen more and the deck warms up, I am not sure that it is not significantly better than the SME any more in some indefinable way. I can certainly live with this level of performance.
Some thought provoking comments, take note that many of the self appointed experts on the NET aren't. I have never gotten more conflicting and incorrect information about something off of the net, and former Thorens employees are not necessarily right either. Use your own judgment!
- Drive belts for this table are a serious problem. The belt Thorens sells for this table is cr*p. Sorry. And I wasted $40 or so to figure that out. I am actually using the original 43 yr old belt, and have ordered a replacement from Turntable Basics. Turntable Belts, Parts and Accessories.
- Remove the platter from the spindle if you are servicing the table and only pull the spindle if you are going to work on the bearing. Realignment to the spindle is so easy even I can do it successfully. Your bearing will thank you.
- The aluminum platter sounds OK, however the green cast iron platter is definitely better damped.
Something else quite sobering to realize is that someone designed a table 50+ yrs that would easily embarrass a few rather more expensive modern tables. Again it hammers home the point (in my mind at least) that in terms of performance at least there has been very little improvement at the cutting edge, perhaps at best it became a bit more economically attainable.
Edit: I'm listening to it, and I guess I will just say for once the hype surrounding this thing is justified.
Attachments
Last edited:
In System
The pictures attached should hint at what has happened here..
I've enjoyed having the SME 20/2 since this spring time, but the long term cost of acquisition is steep, and frankly (and very conveniently ) there are important aspects to the TD-124's performance that actually I prefer to the SME.
The TD-124 is very quiet, there is no audible rumble, and even noise at the lead out groove is tame by comparison to my old TD-125, and not significantly different from the SME. This thing is much quieter to be honest than I had expected.
Another unexpected area where the Thorens is clearly better is in the area of imaging and stage depth. Despite having exactly the same arm (type if not the specific arm) and cartridge the TD-124 recreates a more convincing performance.
This is not to say all is perfect, this is a slight midrange hardness I can hear which may relate to the stock SME cables I am using**, and I am certain that significant improvement will come with a better plinth, and in all likelihood a better platter. In the meantime I can work with what I have, and for me at least it is clearly an attainable improvement to my system.
** I have repeatedly replaced the cables on SME 3009 arms and am coming to a conclusion that some cables actually degrade the performance in some specific ways. Not sure exactly why this would be, but I have left this arm stock for the time being. I cleaned the connectors at both ends of the cable.
The pictures attached should hint at what has happened here..
I've enjoyed having the SME 20/2 since this spring time, but the long term cost of acquisition is steep, and frankly (and very conveniently
) there are important aspects to the TD-124's performance that actually I prefer to the SME. The TD-124 is very quiet, there is no audible rumble, and even noise at the lead out groove is tame by comparison to my old TD-125, and not significantly different from the SME. This thing is much quieter to be honest than I had expected.
Another unexpected area where the Thorens is clearly better is in the area of imaging and stage depth. Despite having exactly the same arm (type if not the specific arm) and cartridge the TD-124 recreates a more convincing performance.
This is not to say all is perfect, this is a slight midrange hardness I can hear which may relate to the stock SME cables I am using**, and I am certain that significant improvement will come with a better plinth, and in all likelihood a better platter. In the meantime I can work with what I have, and for me at least it is clearly an attainable improvement to my system.
** I have repeatedly replaced the cables on SME 3009 arms and am coming to a conclusion that some cables actually degrade the performance in some specific ways. Not sure exactly why this would be, but I have left this arm stock for the time being. I cleaned the connectors at both ends of the cable.
Attachments
I guess an armless SME 20/20 will soon appear on A-Gon but I'm not ready to get rid of my Rega just yet Maybe you need a little better arm/cart to appreciate SME table ?? Zu Denon is still ole conical cart. I had a chance to play with $3k Benz cart and it's a pain to go back to my 15 years old MC3 as good as it sounds. My friendly dealer still has some Shure/SME 3009 II .One little rough without headshell and antiscating the other nicer in the box. I have no idea what to offer so he won't feel offended.
Maybe you need a little better arm/cart to appreciate SME table ?? Zu Denon is still ole conical cart. I had a chance to play with $3k Benz cart and it's a pain to go back to my 15 years old MC3 as good as it sounds. My friendly dealer still has some Shure/SME 3009 II .One little rough without headshell and antiscating the other nicer in the box. I have no idea what to offer so he won't feel offended.
I guess an armless SME 20/20 will soon appear on A-Gon but I'm not ready to get rid of my Rega just yet
The SME is spoken for already, it always had a home lined up in the event I decided not to keep it..
It could well be that I would need a better arm/cartridge to appreciate the SME, but what is clear is that what I've got performs better on the TD-124 which is ok. The original owner of the SME was not too surprised at the end result which is how I ended up with it in the first place. People often spend stupid crazy money on the TD-124 and I at least now have some inkling of why, and unlike the SME I can actually afford to tweak it.
The plan with that Zu Denon is to get it retipped at Soundsmith in a year or so with one of their more exotic offerings. I've heard some scuttlebutt that it is pretty hard to beat when treated to this.
I definitely recommend the SME 3009 Series II and have several along with spare parts. I'm constantly tinkering. I would go for the one in the box, however all the parts required to make a broken one whole are pretty readily available on eBay and from SME reps so either way you would do well. If new in the box I would start with an offer of something like $250 - $300, otherwise standard used prices such as you find on eBay would apply. I don't believe in paying a premium for a used item in a box. Much more than this and I would probably consider eBay, a good used SME 309 or new Jelco 750D instead.
BTW these arms are not nearly as hard to work on as many would have you believe. I had a parts arm and took it apart recently and discovered how easy it was. (I'm mechanical, but it all made sense, and was simpler/easier than I was led to expect.)
The Series II can sound pretty mediocre and uninvolving with modern high compliance, low mass MM type cartridges. I made this mistake with a procession of different Grado, and AT cartridges. I stuck the super heavy and low compliance ZU/Denon on mine and things sort of improved.. A lot..
This might be a characteristic of the knife edge bearing. Avoid the "Improved" unless you get a real deal and plan to change out the plastic knife edge..
Last edited:
One thing I just realized listening to the Punch Brothers "Antifogmatic" is that there are moments where it sounds like they are right here in the room with me, something I have not heard on this recording before. Something really right is going on.
There does for some reason seem to be considerably more detail as well, and I am wondering whether the stock SME wiring is better on this arm than the wiring on the other arm which has RCA jacks.. Or maybe it really is the table.
Some point perhaps worth investigating, but I'm enjoying myself far too much at the moment to bother..
There does for some reason seem to be considerably more detail as well, and I am wondering whether the stock SME wiring is better on this arm than the wiring on the other arm which has RCA jacks.. Or maybe it really is the table.
Some point perhaps worth investigating, but I'm enjoying myself far too much at the moment to bother..
Ok , Thanks for info on 3009 .The one in the box seems well used so I offer $200 and see. As to the SME table ,my thinking is it's better to be happy than right whatever it means. I've got Rega P9 for a pocket change (well relatively speaking) but would never consider paying $5k for that table . It fits quite well in the scheme of things ,looking like $50 toy not worth stealing from ghetto house . It's compact and easy to set up so I'll keep it forever.
I'm playing Dupre Grieg concerto on TD 124 -good that I have this Music maker MM cart -damn TAD drivers , I hope one day I learn to make them to sound gentle, smooth and detailed with lush seductive tone...
I'm playing Dupre Grieg concerto on TD 124 -good that I have this Music maker MM cart -damn TAD drivers , I hope one day I learn to make them to sound gentle, smooth and detailed with lush seductive tone...
Several friends stopped by today, and all commented that my system has never sounded better. One of recently bought a TD-124 MKII to restore based on seeing mine during the restoration process, another has decided he wants one too.. I've been listening to a lot of vinyl over the last few days, I'm very happy with the performance.. It's a little hard to believe that a TT design this old (not to mention the table being this old) could work so well, but it does.
Yesterday I picked up another North American version TD-124 MKII (clearly marked above the speed controls) for a friend, and noted that this one also has an aluminum platter - this is the third MKII I have seen with the AL platter. I believe the story here is that these are all late production units made after the iron platters were discontinued. He picked up his new table tonight and as you can imagine he is pretty excited..
I've been listening to a lot of vinyl over the last few days, I'm very happy with the performance.. It's a little hard to believe that a TT design this old (not to mention the table being this old) could work so well, but it does.Yesterday I picked up another North American version TD-124 MKII (clearly marked above the speed controls) for a friend, and noted that this one also has an aluminum platter - this is the third MKII I have seen with the AL platter. I believe the story here is that these are all late production units made after the iron platters were discontinued. He picked up his new table tonight and as you can imagine he is pretty excited..
Motor Thrust Ball Bearing Size
According to one of the guys on Vinylengine who supplies bearing kits for the E50 motor, the ball bearing for the motor is 2mm.
Yes, 2mm is the correct value, bearings in the range of 0.078" - 0.080" also work fine. (The range brackets 2mm)
I expect it will be a few more days before the new belt gets here, in the meantime I have also ordered a gunmetal main bearing cap, and today I ordered a gold colored Bren1 record weight/clamp. I originally was going to order a TTWeights MiddleWeight, but I realized after a quick analysis that on the inside grooves after the lead out there was almost 100% likelihood that my cartridge and headshell would hit the TTWeight.
I'll install the bearing cap and belt at the same time as the table is now in constant use and I'd rather not tinker with it for the moment as I am enjoying it too much.
I'll install the bearing cap and belt at the same time as the table is now in constant use and I'd rather not tinker with it for the moment as I am enjoying it too much.
That belt from turntablebasics has gone totally AWOL. The gunmetal bearing cap arrived from Australia in less than a week, and the Bren1 record weight I ordered a couple of days ago has also arrived.
A quick look under the turntable late this afternoon revealed a pretty formidable puddle of oil under the main bearing so I ended up installing the new cap and gasket. Nicely made, at some point I will probably go for a silicon-nitride ball bearing as well. Going forward I will separate the platter from the spindle rather than pull the spindle to avoid blowing out this gasket. I used a little form-a-gasket to coat the cap and the housing end to assure a good seal. No leaks so far. The original thrust plate and cap were not in great shape having become significantly concave, and the thrust plate had a rather significant dimple in it.. (See the pix.) I must have damaged it installing the spindle and platter on one or more occasions.
I purchased a Bren1 record clamp because I was relatively certain that my wide headshell and cartridge body would clear. Fortunately I was right - I have about 3/8" of clearance which is plenty.
The combination of improved bearing cap and weight seems to enhance overall resolution, provide a bit more rhythm, and results in a very significant tightening of the bottom end. The differences except in the bass are fairly subtle, but all positive, and don't detract from the good qualities of this table. (I can't say the same of all tweaks, I found a mat I had thought to use actually was not demonstrably an improvement.)
The gunmetal bearing cap arrived from Australia in less than a week, and the Bren1 record weight I ordered a couple of days ago has also arrived. A quick look under the turntable late this afternoon revealed a pretty formidable puddle of oil under the main bearing so I ended up installing the new cap and gasket. Nicely made, at some point I will probably go for a silicon-nitride ball bearing as well. Going forward I will separate the platter from the spindle rather than pull the spindle to avoid blowing out this gasket. I used a little form-a-gasket to coat the cap and the housing end to assure a good seal. No leaks so far. The original thrust plate and cap were not in great shape having become significantly concave, and the thrust plate had a rather significant dimple in it.. (See the pix.) I must have damaged it installing the spindle and platter on one or more occasions.
I purchased a Bren1 record clamp because I was relatively certain that my wide headshell and cartridge body would clear. Fortunately I was right - I have about 3/8" of clearance which is plenty.
The combination of improved bearing cap and weight seems to enhance overall resolution, provide a bit more rhythm, and results in a very significant tightening of the bottom end. The differences except in the bass are fairly subtle, but all positive, and don't detract from the good qualities of this table. (I can't say the same of all tweaks, I found a mat I had thought to use actually was not demonstrably an improvement.)
Attachments
Here's a guy for Italy who sell upgrades for the Thorens TD 124. Man, That's a beautful piece of equipment. The plinth is stunning.
Analogico > Plinth per giradischi > Plinth Clinamen per giradischi a puleggia > Thorens TD124 | CLINAMENAUDIO.COM
Analogico > Plinth per giradischi > Plinth Clinamen per giradischi a puleggia > Thorens TD124 | CLINAMENAUDIO.COM
Certainly in the looks department. I find it difficult to take his choice of arms and the use of the horrid top platter seriosly. The 124 deserves a lot better. And i don't mean a SME 3012