Back to the TD-124 problems
Here is an update:
Yesterday Steve delivered a transformer with 10 switches on it. One of the switches was On/Off. the rest were wired to set up all kinds of voltages from 3VAC to 240VAC. I found a switch pattern that delivered 118 VAC from my 120VAC line voltage. I tested it out on the TD-124 and it could be adjusted to speed using the Eddie current control. However, even after starting it once and setting the Eddie current control. The table would not start up again without help.
Also, the transformer Steve delivered is very noisy. I opened up the box and tightened down all the bolts on the transformer. That quieted it down some, but not enough. I think the box it is in amplifies the hum.
I spoke with Steve about it today and he recommended I put a 25-Watt light bulb under the plinth to warm it up. I did and it spins right up to speed!.
So here is where I am at:
I keep my house cooler than most people (55F at night and 58F max during the day). In the summer it gets quite warm in the house. I don't have central air conditioning.
I rarely use the Turntable in the summer, so the heat is never a problem. I only use it during the cooler months.
So, either Steve and I find a lubricant that will work with this table at 55F or I'm looking at a different table. I'm confident Steve will work with me on either solution.
Here is an update:
Yesterday Steve delivered a transformer with 10 switches on it. One of the switches was On/Off. the rest were wired to set up all kinds of voltages from 3VAC to 240VAC. I found a switch pattern that delivered 118 VAC from my 120VAC line voltage. I tested it out on the TD-124 and it could be adjusted to speed using the Eddie current control. However, even after starting it once and setting the Eddie current control. The table would not start up again without help.
Also, the transformer Steve delivered is very noisy. I opened up the box and tightened down all the bolts on the transformer. That quieted it down some, but not enough. I think the box it is in amplifies the hum.
I spoke with Steve about it today and he recommended I put a 25-Watt light bulb under the plinth to warm it up. I did and it spins right up to speed!.
So here is where I am at:
I keep my house cooler than most people (55F at night and 58F max during the day). In the summer it gets quite warm in the house. I don't have central air conditioning.
I rarely use the Turntable in the summer, so the heat is never a problem. I only use it during the cooler months.
So, either Steve and I find a lubricant that will work with this table at 55F or I'm looking at a different table. I'm confident Steve will work with me on either solution.
TD-124 on low temp lubricants
I can't tell you what lubricant Steve uses, but he has been using it for decades and trusts it. One thing he did differently with this table is he put a dab of motorcycle grease of some kind on the thrust bearing at the bottom of the motor shaft.
I will try to get more info from Steve.
I have found some references to 3-in-1 electric motor oil. It is equivalent to SAE 20 in viscosity. This may work, but wonder if a lower viscosity oil would be suitable.
For other projects I am sold on Mobil-! synthetic oil with a bit of tungsten disulfide (TD) mixed in. TD is the slipperiest stuff in the world. Ive rebuilt the RF deck on my R-390A/URR and used this mix for all the pivots. For the gears and cams I used Marvel synthetic gear lube with TD. I can spin the tuning knob with one finger. I can spin the band switch knob with my pinky and my index finger. They sure weren't that smooth new!
The Mobil-! product is a 5W30 viscosity. The lower end of that may work out well. Has anyone else tried Mobil-1 in a TT motor?
I can't tell you what lubricant Steve uses, but he has been using it for decades and trusts it. One thing he did differently with this table is he put a dab of motorcycle grease of some kind on the thrust bearing at the bottom of the motor shaft.
I will try to get more info from Steve.
I have found some references to 3-in-1 electric motor oil. It is equivalent to SAE 20 in viscosity. This may work, but wonder if a lower viscosity oil would be suitable.
For other projects I am sold on Mobil-! synthetic oil with a bit of tungsten disulfide (TD) mixed in. TD is the slipperiest stuff in the world. Ive rebuilt the RF deck on my R-390A/URR and used this mix for all the pivots. For the gears and cams I used Marvel synthetic gear lube with TD. I can spin the tuning knob with one finger. I can spin the band switch knob with my pinky and my index finger. They sure weren't that smooth new!
The Mobil-! product is a 5W30 viscosity. The lower end of that may work out well. Has anyone else tried Mobil-1 in a TT motor?
The MKII is particularly temperature sensitive and takes a while to warm up and come up to speed. I have not observed this behavior in my older 124.
It sounds like this really is not the table for you and I would sell it and move on to something else. Seems like a Technics SP-10 MKII or similar would be a better match, it will be no fuss and up to speed in no time if you get a good one.
I have a TD-124 MKII and a TD-124 both run well within my expectations, but in the winter the MKII takes a while to get up to speed.
Same situation here temperature wise, the man cave can be very cold in winter, low 60s is about it. Summer even with AC with a couple of kw of dissipation in the electronics it is hot down here.
Modern lubricants in my experience cause more problems than they solve, and I now avoid them as a result and use lubricants as similar as possible to the originals.
It sounds like this really is not the table for you and I would sell it and move on to something else. Seems like a Technics SP-10 MKII or similar would be a better match, it will be no fuss and up to speed in no time if you get a good one.
I have a TD-124 MKII and a TD-124 both run well within my expectations, but in the winter the MKII takes a while to get up to speed.
Same situation here temperature wise, the man cave can be very cold in winter, low 60s is about it. Summer even with AC with a couple of kw of dissipation in the electronics it is hot down here.
Modern lubricants in my experience cause more problems than they solve, and I now avoid them as a result and use lubricants as similar as possible to the originals.
Steve came over for a visit this afternoon and we discussed the slow startup. Steve is using a much heavier viscosity oil than 20 weight. He & I are going to get together toward the end of this week with my TD-124 on his bench. The plan is to tear down the motor and replace the oil with 3-in-1 electric motor oil. Perhaps also on the cone pulley and the idler wheel.
The transformer that drops the voltage from 120VAC to about 117VAC is going to get a good potting of tar or some other non-conducting goo. This should put an end to the mechanical hum.
The transformer that drops the voltage from 120VAC to about 117VAC is going to get a good potting of tar or some other non-conducting goo. This should put an end to the mechanical hum.
I've been using the blue bottle 3 in 1 SAE20 oil (also because I can buy it off the shelf where I live) and find it satisfactory for purpose and intent. I've avoided using anything that is car motor lube which works best under hostile conditions. My experience shows that using car oil maybe usable but much later on it can become tacky or gummy, possibly impeding its performance.
I will not use those again in any tt that don't happen to use any car lube types unless its the last resort. I live in the tropics.
Interesting solution. I like it, but wonder if a resistor would current limit the motor at startup. This would make a low torque problem even worse.
The other thing is that the resistor wouldn't start heating until the table was turned on. So the motor would be cool at startup anyway.
I think you might be thinking the speed change due to heat is a defect. It isn't really. Garrard had a 3% +/- speed control. Many came to think it was to set the speed for badly recorded material. I suspect very little was bad after 1930. What Garrard said was +/- 3% allowed for 190 to 270 VAC ( or 95 to 135 ) and 20 minutes warm up. The gamble was frequency was usually reliable as it was often used for clocks. The frequency is monitored to allow engineers to bring in power stations to balance the load even today. See what they see in the link below.
The BBC being equally frustrated are said to have never switched of their Garrard 301's. Having serviced one at the old Telestar ( was PYE ) records that had run for 50 years or so non stop I can say it had no real wear. I stopped it for one hour, I was told apart from power cuts as the BBC it was never switched off. Telestar are not the records we remember. It didn't stop them using the equipement as PYE had. If you haven't seen a record pressed you haven't lived. It's hot in the factory even in winter. It's said the best pressings come on the hotest summer days. The nearly 100% female staff were mostly of Indian of origine. Even they seem to find it too hot. They loved being with their friends they told me as to why they worked there. Their boss said they really appreciated me asking all my questions. One was why some records have chinagraph pencil markings. It is to indentify a press being out of level or paralell. The sections numbered and measured for thickness.
The TD124 is much like a 301. Find a voltage you like and never switch it off. It's power use is less than $1 a week is my guess, half that perhaps. I doubt fire risk is greater than normal use.
Online-measurement of the mains frequency
The BBC being equally frustrated are said to have never switched of their Garrard 301's. Having serviced one at the old Telestar ( was PYE ) records that had run for 50 years or so non stop I can say it had no real wear. I stopped it for one hour, I was told apart from power cuts as the BBC it was never switched off. Telestar are not the records we remember. It didn't stop them using the equipement as PYE had. If you haven't seen a record pressed you haven't lived. It's hot in the factory even in winter. It's said the best pressings come on the hotest summer days. The nearly 100% female staff were mostly of Indian of origine. Even they seem to find it too hot. They loved being with their friends they told me as to why they worked there. Their boss said they really appreciated me asking all my questions. One was why some records have chinagraph pencil markings. It is to indentify a press being out of level or paralell. The sections numbered and measured for thickness.
The TD124 is much like a 301. Find a voltage you like and never switch it off. It's power use is less than $1 a week is my guess, half that perhaps. I doubt fire risk is greater than normal use.
Online-measurement of the mains frequency
Yes, the TD-124 and Gerard 301 are pretty close although I don't know what kind of motor is in the 301. The TD-124 has a shaded pole motor. Under no load the shaded pole will operate at a speed related to the frequency of the input power. However, under load some slippage occurs. That is why the Eddie current braking speed adjustment works. If it were a synchronous motor it would be locked in with the frequency and a VFD would be needed to adjust the speed.
I've considered letting it run 24-7-365 but Steve is not in favor of it. I will run it by him again & find out what his reasons are.
I've considered letting it run 24-7-365 but Steve is not in favor of it. I will run it by him again & find out what his reasons are.
What you might do is run it when hot at 90 Volts as the standby position. As far as I know no harm will come to it 24/7. The 90V should cut the bill for electricty a bit. It's a bit more than you would think as half the voltage is approximately quarter the power. At a rough guess it could halve the bill. Another guess says it should be enough to run. In fact if it stops running it might be best of all as it might keep the motor warm and use less power.
Some of us think the synchrous motor is the poor relation. I could write pages on that. What's wrong with the TD124 motor is what is so right with it. Modern clones of the AR turntable don't realise it was to make a low cost low skills product. All clones are in my opinion locked into the needs of that low cost design. Few even have the multi motor idea to try to win back what the TD124 just has. I saw a toothed belt in rubber. That seems to be a good idea.
Some of us think the synchrous motor is the poor relation. I could write pages on that. What's wrong with the TD124 motor is what is so right with it. Modern clones of the AR turntable don't realise it was to make a low cost low skills product. All clones are in my opinion locked into the needs of that low cost design. Few even have the multi motor idea to try to win back what the TD124 just has. I saw a toothed belt in rubber. That seems to be a good idea.
Nigel, I would have to do some re-wireing to let the motor run 24/7 in the standby mode. The TD-124 cuts the power to the motor in the standby position.
I agree about the synchronous motor. The toothed belt may add some noise & belt slip isn't the problem. I've already ruled it out.
I really like the TD-124 drive system. When it works it works very well and very quiet. My previous table was a Denon DP-62r. It was a very nice table, but it's high tech design scared me. If anything major went wrong I couldn't fix it. That is why I traded to the TD-124
I agree about the synchronous motor. The toothed belt may add some noise & belt slip isn't the problem. I've already ruled it out.
I really like the TD-124 drive system. When it works it works very well and very quiet. My previous table was a Denon DP-62r. It was a very nice table, but it's high tech design scared me. If anything major went wrong I couldn't fix it. That is why I traded to the TD-124
I sent back the TD124 I borrowed to look at a filter system so now from memory. If the standby was just a transformer offering too low a voltage to overcome friction I think it could work. From memory the drive train is the same running or stopped. Not so the Garrard where it could get a flat spot. If so it could be a cheap solution with real merit. What happens here is the motor inductance and DC resistance are in series. If not the motor would take huge current. Even when not rotating the inductance is the dominant quality. At circa 80 Vrms ( 160 V rms UK ) I would imagine the turntable would stop rotating yet still draw a reduced current. I would guess when taken up to full voltage the warm up time would be about 3 minutes. If you say to +/- 0.1% it might be instant. I imagine 5 watts of heating would be available at 80 V. It would be interesting to know the DC resistance of the motor.
I know what you mean about the Denon. I bought JVC L3 and L5 mini DD for friends. I think they work better than a LP12 Ekos I was using ( DL110 ). Looking at all the details they are not what they look to be. JVC TT71 shares parts. Alas they need constant little fixes to keep them working. Mostly cleaning things. The rock solid images can make an LP12 sound like it's AR cousin. As someone said who had a LP12, slightly drunk. I would say no CD player I have heard puts the little JVC's to shame. No CD player makes me not go to bed. The JVC's go well past 2 in the morning. The arm design copes very well with warps, not plastic as it looks. The PU seems an AT95 type device. Some say JVC made the very best DD's. The Technics designs may well be JVC. My friend ex of JVC thinks so. He was involved with the Mobile Fidelity project. JVC X1 pioneered many aspects of modern pick ups. Diamond shape to track CD4 imformation well above 20 kHz. The half speed cutting to make it possible. Sad that some Mobile Fidelity cuts were not like the originals.
I know what you mean about the Denon. I bought JVC L3 and L5 mini DD for friends. I think they work better than a LP12 Ekos I was using ( DL110 ). Looking at all the details they are not what they look to be. JVC TT71 shares parts. Alas they need constant little fixes to keep them working. Mostly cleaning things. The rock solid images can make an LP12 sound like it's AR cousin. As someone said who had a LP12, slightly drunk. I would say no CD player I have heard puts the little JVC's to shame. No CD player makes me not go to bed. The JVC's go well past 2 in the morning. The arm design copes very well with warps, not plastic as it looks. The PU seems an AT95 type device. Some say JVC made the very best DD's. The Technics designs may well be JVC. My friend ex of JVC thinks so. He was involved with the Mobile Fidelity project. JVC X1 pioneered many aspects of modern pick ups. Diamond shape to track CD4 imformation well above 20 kHz. The half speed cutting to make it possible. Sad that some Mobile Fidelity cuts were not like the originals.
Hi Andrew. That's an excellent idea. I built a very crude low cost auto using a boost transformer. If we take the USA mains to be 115Vrms nominal ( in the past 117V I am told ) we could risk 6Vrms boost. I would guess 7Vrms from a lightly loaded 20VA type. If the usual voltage is lower a 9Vrms type. I often have to build something like this to test an idea. I never had a problem. Auto transformers I have played with seem to be made this way. Keep an eye on it and if happpy buy a real one. I don't think you will have a problem. The buck version would be good for an early Garrard 301.
As I think is clear the transformer adds it's 6Vrms output to the real mains 115Vrms. If you get it wrong it will buck the voltage. If you have any doubts find someone who knows ( wise even if you think you do ). If you feed 115 Vrms directly into the 6Vrms side you will get fire. The fuse is about what I think should do the job. I suspect that is the best place for it. Another to the input 115V side would be wise. It " might " be 250 mAT. If you fuse at 200 mAT you might blow the fuse on start up. You might need 500 mAT. If you think you might feed it into the 6V side add a 500 mAT output fuse ( 3 x 500 mAT looks ideal, one in and one out in addition to my drawing, all on hot H side , as always unplug if changing fuses). Trial and error has always been so with fusing if at reasonable cost in a design ( if not using a starting timer and serries resistance ). Reduce the real risks is what engineers do. Often the fuse in an amplifier is vastly larger than the transformer rating. It is likely fault testing showed it was safe. I have drawn the colours roughly as I think they are. N is neutral and H is what we call live.
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12VA dual 115Vac primary to dual 6vac secondaries, gives lots of choices.
input can be 115Vac alone and ignore both secondaries for 115Vac output.
Change to one 6Vac winding plus 115Vac as primary input. The output can be tapped from the input or from the 115Vac to give either 115Vac or 95% of 115 = 109Vac (this at a maximum current limit of ~1Aac).
Then one can have input to 115+6+6Vac to give an output from the top tapping (115Vac), or from second tapping for 95% = 109Vac, or third tapping for 90% = 104Vac. Again the lower tappings are limited to 1Aac.
Finer steps by buying a dual 5Vac, or a dual 3Vac.
An advantage to using dual secondaries + primary is reduced current (lower flux) and cooler autoformer temperatures. And also less wasted electricity (higher efficiency).
220/240Vac users get finer steps of 2.5% and 5% using the 12VA 230:dual 6Vac.
input can be 115Vac alone and ignore both secondaries for 115Vac output.
Change to one 6Vac winding plus 115Vac as primary input. The output can be tapped from the input or from the 115Vac to give either 115Vac or 95% of 115 = 109Vac (this at a maximum current limit of ~1Aac).
Then one can have input to 115+6+6Vac to give an output from the top tapping (115Vac), or from second tapping for 95% = 109Vac, or third tapping for 90% = 104Vac. Again the lower tappings are limited to 1Aac.
Finer steps by buying a dual 5Vac, or a dual 3Vac.
An advantage to using dual secondaries + primary is reduced current (lower flux) and cooler autoformer temperatures. And also less wasted electricity (higher efficiency).
220/240Vac users get finer steps of 2.5% and 5% using the 12VA 230:dual 6Vac.
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Even something this small could work. As Andrew says we could do well with circa 5 or 10 volts ( 0-4.5 , 0-4.5 ). 105, 110, 115 , 120 , 125 Vrms. All for $5.
Vigortronix VTX-120-4206-4045 PCB Transformer 115V+115V 6VA 4.5V+4.5V | Rapid Online
Vigortronix VTX-120-4206-4045 PCB Transformer 115V+115V 6VA 4.5V+4.5V | Rapid Online
I have done the following on my TD124:
Changed the bushings in the main bearing
Changed the bushings for idler wheel
Changed the motor bearings with new felts from Audiosilente.
New belt and motor decoupling springs from Hanze hifi
Everything is lubed with ISO46 compressor oil
The motor runs a bit on the warm side, but I suspect this will improve after some use.
Other than this, the table is running very silently, and I am very happy with the outcome of this.
I have ordered new armboards in plywood. I read the november issue of Stereophile about Swissonor TA10 tonearm. Here Mr Dudley is describing the "loose" mounting of the armboard to the turntable in the form of rubber grommets. He compared the fixed mounting to this and clearly prefered the compliant version.
Any comments on what is the prefered material for armboards?
Anybody tried to mount it "loose"?
I am goint to mount an old Ortofon SMG212 arm on my turntable.
Changed the bushings in the main bearing
Changed the bushings for idler wheel
Changed the motor bearings with new felts from Audiosilente.
New belt and motor decoupling springs from Hanze hifi
Everything is lubed with ISO46 compressor oil
The motor runs a bit on the warm side, but I suspect this will improve after some use.
Other than this, the table is running very silently, and I am very happy with the outcome of this.
I have ordered new armboards in plywood. I read the november issue of Stereophile about Swissonor TA10 tonearm. Here Mr Dudley is describing the "loose" mounting of the armboard to the turntable in the form of rubber grommets. He compared the fixed mounting to this and clearly prefered the compliant version.
Any comments on what is the prefered material for armboards?
Anybody tried to mount it "loose"?
I am goint to mount an old Ortofon SMG212 arm on my turntable.
This is information from the home page of Schopper:
The advantages over a normal wooden board is the efficient decoupling from the chassis. The material used is solid harder than wood. Thus, mechanical vibrations, which belong to the sound are not absorbed.
Soundwise the decoupled laminated board sounds louder than the wooden board and has a better bass reproduction. It lost no information.
The advantages over a normal wooden board is the efficient decoupling from the chassis. The material used is solid harder than wood. Thus, mechanical vibrations, which belong to the sound are not absorbed.
Soundwise the decoupled laminated board sounds louder than the wooden board and has a better bass reproduction. It lost no information.
Ply being stiff relative to weight and not lossy (Hi Q) will vibrate and probably at frequencies well into the audio range.
That may account for "brash"
A well damped (Lo Q) flexible board might be OK.
A very stiff board, like carbon fibre sheet might be Hi Q. But a constrained layer arrangement with two thin carbon fibre sheets may perform very well.
That may account for "brash"
This too sounds like vibrations in the audio range.
A well damped (Lo Q) flexible board might be OK.
A very stiff board, like carbon fibre sheet might be Hi Q. But a constrained layer arrangement with two thin carbon fibre sheets may perform very well.