Hi to Simoon and welcome to what I refer to as the "219" thread (as compared to the "turntable" thread).
Thank you!
And thank you for the run down on the parts and the process.
I'm going out of town until early April, but I believe I will build a 219 when I get back.
the arrow's better
putting the rega/grado on at the same time as the arrow/kenwood n39, the arrow is the better by a big margin. the instruments and vocalists are more real. the rega/grado are excellent and would be acceptable, having great transient performance and energy, but they are less realistic. I also used a syrinx le1/shure 75jico sas, which is detailed but gets overwhelmed at times, whereas nothing bothers the arrow, it just delivers across all genre of music. my next experiment is to compare to the original lenco arm because I haven't heard it in many years. the longer arm means less tracking error, but then I haven't applied any antiskate force yet. I will probably get an old technics sl1210 to try the arrow on, because they do have a decent motor, just not such good arms. I am also waiting for jico to start marketing their sas for the n39 so I can upgrade it (they have told me it will take a few weeks).
Brubeck at Carnegie hall playing at the moment, like having the concert in my living room and my girls aren't even telling me to turn it off!
putting the rega/grado on at the same time as the arrow/kenwood n39, the arrow is the better by a big margin. the instruments and vocalists are more real. the rega/grado are excellent and would be acceptable, having great transient performance and energy, but they are less realistic. I also used a syrinx le1/shure 75jico sas, which is detailed but gets overwhelmed at times, whereas nothing bothers the arrow, it just delivers across all genre of music. my next experiment is to compare to the original lenco arm because I haven't heard it in many years. the longer arm means less tracking error, but then I haven't applied any antiskate force yet. I will probably get an old technics sl1210 to try the arrow on, because they do have a decent motor, just not such good arms. I am also waiting for jico to start marketing their sas for the n39 so I can upgrade it (they have told me it will take a few weeks).
Brubeck at Carnegie hall playing at the moment, like having the concert in my living room and my girls aren't even telling me to turn it off!
lenco arm
i have put the old lenco arm back on and it is a lovely sounding arm. a little coloured in the bass, but instruments and voices have the realism that I have come to expect from the arrow. that said the arrow is still the better arm (I cant compare simultaneously until I fix up a new balance weight for the arrow). I suspect ball bearings are not ideal for a tonearm, particularly in the vertical/pitch. the unipivot was good enough for decca with their excellent London cartridge, but the pivot is very good at picking up motor vibrations or any other incoming noise for that matter. I bet the arrow rigged up to your oracle is just about perfect stew, plenty of isolation. theres an oracle Delphi iv with turbo for £1500 up at emporium just now but I cant justify that without having a proper job (I am in the same boat stew - need a good employer, have been delivering the free paper to get by)
i have put the old lenco arm back on and it is a lovely sounding arm. a little coloured in the bass, but instruments and voices have the realism that I have come to expect from the arrow. that said the arrow is still the better arm (I cant compare simultaneously until I fix up a new balance weight for the arrow). I suspect ball bearings are not ideal for a tonearm, particularly in the vertical/pitch. the unipivot was good enough for decca with their excellent London cartridge, but the pivot is very good at picking up motor vibrations or any other incoming noise for that matter. I bet the arrow rigged up to your oracle is just about perfect stew, plenty of isolation. theres an oracle Delphi iv with turbo for £1500 up at emporium just now but I cant justify that without having a proper job (I am in the same boat stew - need a good employer, have been delivering the free paper to get by)
lenco vs arrow
that was easy, just used a different counterweight. well, the arrow is much cleaner in the bass and has a neutrality missing from the lenco so the musicians are again more real. the lenco's colouration is pleasant, but distracts from the performance. all I want is the arrow now and there is a way of setting it up on the lenco so that the players armlift can be used with it - a benefit to me as I sometimes get the shakes and lost a diamond yesterday, when I dropped the arm. I don't want to be unfair to the lenco arm, it is really good, but its kodachrome, if you know what I mean, whereas the arrow is fujichrome (or something like that) especially in the bass.
when it comes to manufacturing, its best to do as much in house. aluminium is easily worked, so an armbase with lift and pivot and vta adjust could be home-made. I am looking for a source of clamp on headshells, they could be for another diameter and change arrow diameter to match, or shim. otherwise fitting the sme type attachment for detachable shells is doable and cheapish, but may offend purist sensitivities. there is a german tonearm maker called Thomas schick who is having quite some success with his ortophon recreations (detachable headshell). the biggest obstacle is the aversion to diy in the 'high end community' (spoiled rich kids) so its all got to be done for them and come with cast iron guarantees (oh and look pretty and have some sort of bs mysticism/magic materials). also most consumers expect conformity and using a 12" or longer arm on players designed for 9" or10" is bound to frighten the horses, just look at the reaction to levelling a turntable with coasters (I don't care what it looks like, its my ears that do the listening).
that was easy, just used a different counterweight. well, the arrow is much cleaner in the bass and has a neutrality missing from the lenco so the musicians are again more real. the lenco's colouration is pleasant, but distracts from the performance. all I want is the arrow now and there is a way of setting it up on the lenco so that the players armlift can be used with it - a benefit to me as I sometimes get the shakes and lost a diamond yesterday, when I dropped the arm. I don't want to be unfair to the lenco arm, it is really good, but its kodachrome, if you know what I mean, whereas the arrow is fujichrome (or something like that) especially in the bass.
when it comes to manufacturing, its best to do as much in house. aluminium is easily worked, so an armbase with lift and pivot and vta adjust could be home-made. I am looking for a source of clamp on headshells, they could be for another diameter and change arrow diameter to match, or shim. otherwise fitting the sme type attachment for detachable shells is doable and cheapish, but may offend purist sensitivities. there is a german tonearm maker called Thomas schick who is having quite some success with his ortophon recreations (detachable headshell). the biggest obstacle is the aversion to diy in the 'high end community' (spoiled rich kids) so its all got to be done for them and come with cast iron guarantees (oh and look pretty and have some sort of bs mysticism/magic materials). also most consumers expect conformity and using a 12" or longer arm on players designed for 9" or10" is bound to frighten the horses, just look at the reaction to levelling a turntable with coasters (I don't care what it looks like, its my ears that do the listening).
Let your ears be your guide young sky 'pde2000' walker, lol, the bs mystics can go ...... .........s.
To be fair they do sometimes come up with some desirable looking bling, that can be reverse engineered by us cheep skates, Or just the plain not so affluent.
Any way it might be interesting to have a mini picture / Idea, list of all the nicest bits of arms that have been designed.
it could provide food for thought, " I really like that now what would be the best way of achieving it"
As it happens I've Done just that with a pair of JBL TKi 10 it was their flagship model & probably a loss leader as they would of sold loads of the smaller ones.
it was the 5 sided Trapezoidal box that was difficult to construct, but i managed though it did take 3 years altogether
To be fair they do sometimes come up with some desirable looking bling, that can be reverse engineered by us cheep skates, Or just the plain not so affluent.
Any way it might be interesting to have a mini picture / Idea, list of all the nicest bits of arms that have been designed.
it could provide food for thought, " I really like that now what would be the best way of achieving it"
As it happens I've Done just that with a pair of JBL TKi 10 it was their flagship model & probably a loss leader as they would of sold loads of the smaller ones.
it was the 5 sided Trapezoidal box that was difficult to construct, but i managed though it did take 3 years altogether
back to solving issues...
guys,
using pre-made headshells just frees those of us up who have limited wood machining capabilities (I don't even have a drill press). And the end result may be more aesthetically pleasing , so any reasonable headshell can do the job. Someplace I saw some very nice, small collar clamps that would be ideal and are pretty inexpensive as well. I just have to look into the available sizing.
Yesterday I tried a new 100gram counter-weight. IT will work for almost every 219/turntable combination that I can foresee being put together. Just a single thread to hang it, some heat shrink to give the thread something to grip to, and (perhaps) a couple of small O-rings to help locate the thread.
Anyways, I think I will offer "kits" on a Kickstarter page. These would be the basic parts kits and should allow me to purchase a couple of small woodworking power tools that would be suitable in manufacturing these arms in batches for consumer consumption.
Still planning on offering a single arm (complete) in the Vendor's Bizarre forum.
Doing a comparison of a DD table to my Oracle as a basis of developing the turntable thread. Of course I'll compare the stock arm to the 219. So I may not be very attentive to any PMs or posts here for a few days.
guys,
using pre-made headshells just frees those of us up who have limited wood machining capabilities (I don't even have a drill press). And the end result may be more aesthetically pleasing , so any reasonable headshell can do the job. Someplace I saw some very nice, small collar clamps that would be ideal and are pretty inexpensive as well. I just have to look into the available sizing.
Yesterday I tried a new 100gram counter-weight. IT will work for almost every 219/turntable combination that I can foresee being put together. Just a single thread to hang it, some heat shrink to give the thread something to grip to, and (perhaps) a couple of small O-rings to help locate the thread.
Anyways, I think I will offer "kits" on a Kickstarter page. These would be the basic parts kits and should allow me to purchase a couple of small woodworking power tools that would be suitable in manufacturing these arms in batches for consumer consumption.
Still planning on offering a single arm (complete) in the Vendor's Bizarre forum.
Doing a comparison of a DD table to my Oracle as a basis of developing the turntable thread. Of course I'll compare the stock arm to the 219
. So I may not be very attentive to any PMs or posts here for a few days.the other half
to use the other half of the arrow i extracted the tungsten tip from a new walking stick (another bargain from decathlon) which has a perfect cup for the unipivot and inserted it into the pivot hole using some methacrylate to set it. had to shim the tube for the sony headshell using some carbon fibre tube from a fishing rod (another bargain from decathlon - sports stores are the new hifi shops). the grado went in this time and had to be mounted without any offset because of the headshell. this does mean the is no skating force, and the tracking error is low because of the length anyway. sounds good. this pivot cup will last forever.
to use the other half of the arrow i extracted the tungsten tip from a new walking stick (another bargain from decathlon) which has a perfect cup for the unipivot and inserted it into the pivot hole using some methacrylate to set it. had to shim the tube for the sony headshell using some carbon fibre tube from a fishing rod (another bargain from decathlon - sports stores are the new hifi shops). the grado went in this time and had to be mounted without any offset because of the headshell. this does mean the is no skating force, and the tracking error is low because of the length anyway. sounds good. this pivot cup will last forever
.antiskate
I was wrong about the antiskate. a new album is starting to sound rough on the right channel. I should have used the test disc. have blutaked a bias thread to the arrow and am hanging 1g 3cm from the pivot, which sounds about right with the grado, which is not a very kind pickup. the damaged disc sounds better on the fons with the jicosas (line contact) so no real harm done. is new vinyl softer? anyway the offset just gets the pivot closer to the spindle so bias is important either way.
if playing the discs damages them maybe should transfer to hidef digital (need a better sound card) and play the music on a media player. my old neneh cherry still sounds good and she used to get some heavy play.
I was wrong about the antiskate. a new album is starting to sound rough on the right channel. I should have used the test disc. have blutaked a bias thread to the arrow and am hanging 1g 3cm from the pivot, which sounds about right with the grado, which is not a very kind pickup. the damaged disc sounds better on the fons with the jicosas (line contact) so no real harm done. is new vinyl softer? anyway the offset just gets the pivot closer to the spindle so bias is important either way.
if playing the discs damages them maybe should transfer to hidef digital (need a better sound card) and play the music on a media player. my old neneh cherry still sounds good and she used to get some heavy play.
14" Arm
Made a new arm. This one is a 14" version using an Easton arrow shaft.
Wire is 38 gauge. The head shell holder is a laminated wood. It's actually a crafts trinket. Pieces of wood with letters on them that can be hung on a nail, possibly to spell things out. It was the right size and had a hole already drilled in the right spot. It's held into place with JB Weld. The head shell is aluminum drilled to fit the cartridge.
Only think I don't like is that the whole arm rocks and sways a bit. Might be do to the pivot point being to sharp as a point and not a radius. It's literally a needle point. It's inserts into an acorn nut.
What? How does it sound? Thought you'd never ask.
It's the best thing I have heard in my system.
Phono: Pearl II
Cartridge: Grado The Reference
Made a new arm. This one is a 14" version using an Easton arrow shaft.
Wire is 38 gauge. The head shell holder is a laminated wood. It's actually a crafts trinket. Pieces of wood with letters on them that can be hung on a nail, possibly to spell things out. It was the right size and had a hole already drilled in the right spot. It's held into place with JB Weld. The head shell is aluminum drilled to fit the cartridge.
Only think I don't like is that the whole arm rocks and sways a bit. Might be do to the pivot point being to sharp as a point and not a radius. It's literally a needle point. It's inserts into an acorn nut.
What? How does it sound? Thought you'd never ask.
It's the best thing I have heard in my system.
Phono: Pearl II
Cartridge: Grado The Reference
Attachments
acorn nuts...
vdi_nenna: ...often don't have a central "divot". Use a Dremel or similar and create one. That's where I began. Your pivot may not be high enough in the arm tube. If it is slightly higher than the CofG of the complete arm/cartridge, then it will be somewhat unstable. I set mine up so the counterweight is below the CofG of the complete arm assembly. If the counterweight is well below the CofG, the arm will be inherently stable.
Happy you like the sound. I like Grados as well (I have 2 sig8's).
pde2000: I've never had an issue without anti-skating. It reall depends on where in the arm geometry the stylus tip is in relation to the centreline of the arm and headshell. Hence my earlier comments about stylus tip alignment and sled's headshell.
vdi_nenna: ...often don't have a central "divot". Use a Dremel or similar and create one
. That's where I began. Your pivot may not be high enough in the arm tube. If it is slightly higher than the CofG of the complete arm/cartridge, then it will be somewhat unstable. I set mine up so the counterweight is below the CofG of the complete arm assembly. If the counterweight is well below the CofG, the arm will be inherently stable.Happy you like the sound. I like Grados as well (I have 2 sig8's).
pde2000: I've never had an issue without anti-skating. It reall depends on where in the arm geometry the stylus tip is in relation to the centreline of the arm and headshell. Hence my earlier comments about stylus tip alignment and sled's headshell.
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I'm loving the idea of a tonearm made with an arrow, super cool. My inner boy wants to keep the fletch and point.
On a more practical note. I want to ditch my Lenco GL75 stock arm, and am considering the 219. The lateral bearings on the Lenco arm seem quite reasonable, so I wondering if I could insert a 219 with some diy knife bearings and keep the advantages of a tonearm lift and a neat passage for the wiring. Or do you think that much of the great things about the 219 derives from the design of the uni pivot bearing?
Many thanks in advance for your thoughts and wisdom.
On a more practical note. I want to ditch my Lenco GL75 stock arm, and am considering the 219. The lateral bearings on the Lenco arm seem quite reasonable, so I wondering if I could insert a 219 with some diy knife bearings and keep the advantages of a tonearm lift and a neat passage for the wiring. Or do you think that much of the great things about the 219 derives from the design of the uni pivot bearing?
Many thanks in advance for your thoughts and wisdom.
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I'm begining to understand what you mean. I was bequeathed an SME 3009, and whilst it's still on its ERA deck, I shifted my cartridge shure M75 over from the Lenco. Long story short, I had my aha moment I know the cartridge was not a good match for the Lenco arm, but the difference was something else.
So the Lenco Tank will be stripped down and sold in bits to help fund a 219 and a decent SAS stylus.
Thanks for the advise - I shudder to think that I am modding a deck where that tonearm had a future, all be it a short one
I know the cartridge was not a good match for the Lenco arm, but the difference was something else.So the Lenco Tank will be stripped down and sold in bits to help fund a 219 and a decent SAS stylus.
Thanks for the advise - I shudder to think that I am modding a deck where that tonearm had a future, all be it a short one
Stew,
If we make our arms approximately 12" from pivot to stylus tip, give or take 5mm (there is a reason for the 5 mm drift) Is there any point in having an offset angle on the headshell of say 19--22 deg. When we can move the whole arm, at it's base, to do the same thing or is it just more convenient to put in an offset to save space ?
I'm making a headshell / Pod, for Decca carts Mk3 & Mk4 (hence the 5mm drift) that fixes directly into the cartridge & arm tube.
If we make our arms approximately 12" from pivot to stylus tip, give or take 5mm (there is a reason for the 5 mm drift) Is there any point in having an offset angle on the headshell of say 19--22 deg. When we can move the whole arm, at it's base, to do the same thing or is it just more convenient to put in an offset to save space ?
I'm making a headshell / Pod, for Decca carts Mk3 & Mk4 (hence the 5mm drift) that fixes directly into the cartridge & arm tube.
tracing damage
the most likely cause of the damage is the arm bouncing off its pivot when the music is up loud as the setup has no isolation at the moment. I was enjoying a very loud session and was curious to feel for vibration at the pivot, and it was very vigorous. with the volume down the vibration was gone (this is the second half and has a tungsten carbide pivot cup). ideally the new plinth will be better (with a better location too) but I have added 50g mass over the pivot (roll of solder) for now and am listening at a lower level. the lenco arm just doesn't do it for me anymore - rubber pivot cups are a bad idea.
the most likely cause of the damage is the arm bouncing off its pivot when the music is up loud as the setup has no isolation at the moment. I was enjoying a very loud session and was curious to feel for vibration at the pivot, and it was very vigorous. with the volume down the vibration was gone (this is the second half and has a tungsten carbide pivot cup). ideally the new plinth will be better (with a better location too) but I have added 50g mass over the pivot (roll of solder) for now and am listening at a lower level. the lenco arm just doesn't do it for me anymore - rubber pivot cups are a bad idea.
"If we make our arms approximately 12" from pivot to stylus tip, give or take 5mm (there is a reason for the 5 mm drift) Is there any point in having an offset angle on the headshell of say 19--22 deg. When we can move the whole arm, at it's base, to do the same thing or is it just more convenient to put in an offset to save space ?"
I incorporate an offset angle (or the ability to adjust it) in the headshell as a convenience, as not everybody can move the arm base wherever they need to.
Been busy so not on the forums much as of late.
I incorporate an offset angle (or the ability to adjust it) in the headshell as a convenience, as not everybody can move the arm base wherever they need to.
Been busy so not on the forums much as of late.
Let's start
Thats what I thought reading all of this. So I started, using a carbon shaft of an old golfclub, a Parker Ballpoint refill, some pieces of brass and wood and an alu tube for the headshell. Defenately not a lightweight solution, but I guess it will do the job!
Stew, and all of you, thanks for the inspiration to do something different
Grtz,
Mark
(When I find the way to upload some local pictures i will show the progess)
Thats what I thought reading all of this. So I started, using a carbon shaft of an old golfclub, a Parker Ballpoint refill, some pieces of brass and wood and an alu tube for the headshell. Defenately not a lightweight solution, but I guess it will do the job!
Stew, and all of you, thanks for the inspiration to do something different
Grtz,
Mark
(When I find the way to upload some local pictures i will show the progess)
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