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Old 16th September 2010, 05:15 PM   #1
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Default Schroeder Arm Rip Off Found!

I spotted a Schroeder Arm rip off on ebay. I don't know if this has been mentioned before. I notified eBay so hopefully they ban the guy from selling them. What also upsets me is that if something is a patent infringement, its a patent infringement, so why did this guy create such a poorly executed version?

Wire hanging tonearm - eBay (item 170533659093 end time Sep-27-10 23:49:03 PDT)

I also wrote the seller a pretty harsh letter. I figured this was too off topic to go in the DIY Schroeder thread.
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Old 16th September 2010, 06:05 PM   #2
limono is offline limono  United States
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I saw it too. At $900 USD I'd rather buy used Schroeder for twice the price anyway(assuming it's a good tonearm I feel sorry for 47 labs and DIY community ripoffs, grup buys etc too ....
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Old 17th September 2010, 05:01 AM   #3
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If Frank has patents in China, he can have them stop manucturing it. If he doesn't, then China can sell it in their own country and into countries where Schroeder does not have patents. China is a blatent "rip off" society as far as manufacturing and it awfly hard to get them to stop.
Frank can go after the importers who take it upon themselves to sell the Chinese arm in countries where Frank is protected.
This stinks becuase an individual imorting one himself from a non-protected country is very hard to stop. And it's even harder to prevent someone from self importing for his own private use and consumption a protected in the buyers country product.
I hope Frank has luck in getting them to cease and decist, but it looks to be an expensive battle for him.
Walmart got so big from people buying cheap Chinese goods and it seems that there will always be customers for knock offs.
I know this from experience in the SCUBA business as I was once a manufacturer myself and had to deal with this problem of patent infringement copies in countries in which we didn't bother to protect ourselves... hindsight is always 20 / 20.
I think it may be possible to get eBay to dis-allow the auction for those products in countries that are protected by patents, and I really hope the shut down on all the auctions, but there is still the possability for eBay to allow the auctions to continue, but only in China itself and countries in which Frank has no protection. And as I mentioned before... any one it seems can accsess any countries eBay auctions... thank you WWW

Maybe because they use a picture of one of Franks actual arms in the auction they can be stopped completely.

I guess it was a matter of time for the Chinese audio rip off companies to steal great designs.... I feel sick about it.

JD

Last edited by Jeffrey Davison; 17th September 2010 at 05:04 AM.
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Old 17th September 2010, 06:21 AM   #4
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What upsets me too though, is that you have all these guys on ebay and elsewhere selling amps and things that are based on famous circuitry. Essentially ripoffs. These are things that require some intelligence to work out. Added to that, many of these companies have access to all sorts of prototyping equipment. You would think that at some point the people with the capabilities to make these good knockoffs (this arm excluded) would have some desire to innovate and develop their own contributions to the audio world(or the MP3 player Market, or Cellphones etc). There doesn't seem to be any shame in the blatant knockoffs, or any code of ethics. By the way, I'm generalizing an industry, not the people as a whole.
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Old 17th September 2010, 05:18 PM   #5
kevinkr is offline kevinkr  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ficklecycler View Post
I spotted a Schroeder Arm rip off on ebay. I don't know if this has been mentioned before. I notified eBay so hopefully they ban the guy from selling them. What also upsets me is that if something is a patent infringement, its a patent infringement, so why did this guy create such a poorly executed version?

Wire hanging tonearm - eBay (item 170533659093 end time Sep-27-10 23:49:03 PDT)

I also wrote the seller a pretty harsh letter. I figured this was too off topic to go in the DIY Schroeder thread.
I'd send Frank a private PM with a link to this auction so that he is aware of the issue.

Note that the seller admits openly that this is an imitation Shroeder Arm. The remarks seem to imply that the pictures are of the knock off and not an actual Shroeder. A shame that they did not make an effort to engineer their own design, the level of workmanship does look good.

This is on the same level IMHO as the knock off handbags and fashion accessories that Louis Vitton and other brands have been fighting for years. Blatant infringement of IP.

If I understand correctly this knock off may not be legally sold anywhere the Shroeder patents are in force. Building for anything other than personal use is IMHO highly unethical. (Frank has indicated in the past IIRC that this the only acceptable use.)
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Old 17th September 2010, 05:23 PM   #6
kevinkr is offline kevinkr  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ficklecycler View Post
What upsets me too though, is that you have all these guys on ebay and elsewhere selling amps and things that are based on famous circuitry. Essentially ripoffs. These are things that require some intelligence to work out. Added to that, many of these companies have access to all sorts of prototyping equipment. You would think that at some point the people with the capabilities to make these good knockoffs (this arm excluded) would have some desire to innovate and develop their own contributions to the audio world(or the MP3 player Market, or Cellphones etc). There doesn't seem to be any shame in the blatant knockoffs, or any code of ethics. By the way, I'm generalizing an industry, not the people as a whole.
In addition to the ethical issues surrounding the purchase of many of those knock-offs, the actual quality of those knock-offs often is quite poor. So many legitimate designs available why would anyone steal and then poorly execute protected IP? To me it is a reflection of a cynical disregard for the efforts of others, and is widely reflected in discussions about piracy of all sorts of IP on the Internet. Some people just feel they are entitled to it without paying fair value for its use. (Or accepting that they can't or won't pay and therefore are not entitled to its use.)
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Last edited by kevinkr; 17th September 2010 at 05:27 PM.
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Old 17th September 2010, 10:22 PM   #7
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Hi Kevin,
Thanks for pointing out this one. I just had to stop a german based company(Musical Life) from selling their products under my name via a german based internet sales platform. Not a problem at all since I registered my name as a trademark. But is tells you that copycats and wannebes do exist everywhere(not just in China). And they usually don't even consider that the originator of "their" product may be an individual with a small turnover, trying to support a family.
What was pointed out before applies far more often than not. The plagiarist doesn't even understand the product he's copying(same here).
I will contact ebay asap to put an end to this. And his use of one of my own pics only makes it more obvious...

Hate to waist time on stuff like this.

And thanks for the support!

Frank
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Old 20th September 2010, 04:24 PM   #8
kevinkr is offline kevinkr  United States
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Originally Posted by berlinta View Post
Hi Kevin,
Thanks for pointing out this one. I just had to stop a german based company(Musical Life) from selling their products under my name via a german based internet sales platform. Not a problem at all since I registered my name as a trademark. But is tells you that copycats and wannebes do exist everywhere(not just in China). And they usually don't even consider that the originator of "their" product may be an individual with a small turnover, trying to support a family.
What was pointed out before applies far more often than not. The plagiarist doesn't even understand the product he's copying(same here).
I will contact ebay asap to put an end to this. And his use of one of my own pics only makes it more obvious...

Hate to waist time on stuff like this.

And thanks for the support!

Frank
Hi Frank,
You have a great product which is why the con-artists of course want to copy it.. Unfortunate that so much energy must go into protecting one's rights. There just seems to be such a sense of entitlement and a lack of respect for the work of others.. (I.e why develop something yourself when you can steal it from someone else..) There seem to be a lot more unethical people out there than I ever imagined, or perhaps it's just that the internet facilitates the inherently dis-honest, and makes it more obvious to everyone? Probably was always so, but the internet makes it so easy I guess.

I have a very close friend who actually owns one of your arms. Elegant..


Kevin
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