Hi Tech grease and oil...

[moray james]

Have been looking into SOTA lubricants to use on my Continuo inverted bearing. Came across Power UP Lubricants which offer lower friction and greater load bearing than either PTFE loaded lubricants or moly products and are compatable with most all lubricants though they do recommend cleaning the bearing and using just the Power Up alone.
Will be picking up some Thixogrease next week to try on my inverted bearing. Have requested info on their additives to use with thin oils like the Marvel Mystery air tool oil for use in non inverted bearings and on motor bearings. Just wondering if there are any here who have experimented with high performance lubricants in their turntables? Check out the site. Looking forward to comments from those who have crossed the manufacturer's recommended lubricant line.

Powerupusa.net - Power Up Lubricants Home Page - Boundary Lubrication, Oil Additives, NNL690, HydraMaxx, ThixoGrease, GEN49D, RCL1000, Automotive, Industrial, Marine

 

[AVWERK]

Krytox

BTW Sota uses 2 drops of Tufoil on the Star shaft

Regards
David

 

[Conrad Hoffman]

IMO, correct mechanical design is everything and beyond that the best you can do is choose the right type and viscosity of lube. With few exceptions, most claims are snake oil, probably because almost nobody has the ability to test the stuff. No experience with Powerup. Krytox is great stuff in the right application, but that's not everywhere. Synthetic oils are good where they're good, but again, not everywhere. Castor oil has great properties if you're willing to change it before it goes bad. Kluber makes some great lubes, but their distribution people make no effort to sell them, so info is sparse. Nye has a choice for everything and their engineers are more knowledgeable than just about anyone. They'll actually talk to you. They also have small quantity distribution. The only useful rule of thumb I've found is, if you can buy it locally in an auto store, it's a really bad choice.

 

[SY]

I found a significant difference in friction in the bearing of my VPI by making up a blend of mineral oil and 4% tungsten disulfide nano-fullerenes (ApNano). I didn't have a direct way to measure it, but I basically timed how long it took the platter to come to a rest after spinning it up to 33 rpm without the belt, then letting it go. The new lube nearly doubled that time.

 

[moray james]

Thanks for the info will look into these products. Sy,mork said nano nano.

 

[moray james]

an audiophile friend just told be about a product he finds works extremely well in inverted style bearing as well as other types which require a grease. It is a watch makers lube made by Moebius # 8301. Moebius has recently been bought out by Swatch so I can't get any technical data on the product but I do know that it is a graphite loaded grease. The graphite provides both electrical continuity to bleed charge off of the platter via the bearing and it also provides damping. Am looking to some of the recommendations made here to see if any of those companies know this product and make similar. thought I would pass this on. My friend much prefered the Moebius 8301 to a PTFE lube he had been using.

 

[Conrad Hoffman]

Sy, was the viscosity of the two lubes exactly the same? Viscosity is usually the controlling factor on spin down tests. Temperature also the same?

IMO, any point contact bearing- ball against flat or ball, is a nearly impossible situation for lubes. There are few if any additives that have enough film strength to keep the parts separated, so the choice of those materials becomes critical.

 

[jean-paul]

Thanks for the info will look into these products. Sy,mork said nano nano.

You started. Now do the trick with the fingers !

 

[moray james]

Conrad I am not up on the mechanical side of bearings or lubricant but I am picking up some good info on the forums. The Power Up lubricants will (they claim) withstand 200,000.00 pounds per sq inch. So how does that measure up to the force of a 15 pound platter riding on a 3/8 dia. bearing?

Jean-Paul: my fingers are all covered with grease I can't nano nano now.

 

[Globulator]

The Power Up lubricants will (they claim) withstand 200,000.00 pounds per sq inch.

This is always a meaningless measure however unless you compare like with like. The best lubricants for pressure alone are gearbox oils, they use also sulphur compounds for the EP ability, that will also leach out copper.

The best (non vegetable) oils are ester synthetics, then PAO synthetics, then semi-synth (cracked), then regular mineral oil.

Grease on the other hand is merely oil in suspension, you still need to know the original oil. I would expect most turntables to benefit from a clean and re-assemble, I'm not really sure of the best to use - I'd be tempted to try a 0W40 PAO synthetic myself - AKA Mobil 1

 

[SY]

Sy, was the viscosity of the two lubes exactly the same? Viscosity is usually the controlling factor on spin down tests. Temperature also the same?

Exactly the same? Probably not. And the thixotropy is certainly different as well. Temperature is the same.

The WS2 fullerenes are exceptionally lubricious and have an astonishing compressive strength (unlike moly or graphite).

 

[moray james]

Sy: are the WS2 fullerenes compatible as an ad mix to other lubricants? If so where does one find small quantities to experiment with? Do you have any experience with conventional and or damping grease and would The WS2 fullerenes be a viable additive there to decrease friction also? In the case of my inverted bearing where grease is a necessity anything that will lower friction is a plus. Thanks.

 

[SY]

The fullerenes act as very small ball bearings- they have high compressive strength and dynamically telescope in and out as the lube mechanism. There's some nice info on ApNano's site. You should be able to order relatively small quantities directly from them. You can load them in pretty heavily to most oil bases and make a nice, non-flowable grease.

 

[moray james]

Thanks Sy will look into this as it would appear to be the cats whisker.

 

[directdriver]

Below are quotes from a blog about similar topic: "Turntable spindles and bearings: grease or oil and science or magic?"

Wish to share (part of) a recent conversation still on-going with MJ, a Canadian friend, very well informed, almost "obsessed" and passionate enough to quite deeply understand the several parts which compose the puzzle.

"I think that a TT bearing lubricant must provide a conductive path for static charge build up. That way the charge at the stylus tip can flow to the platter then to the bearing and finally to ground. This presumes that you provide a path from the disk surface to the platter surface to the bearing assembly.

Yes no matter what material you use for the bearing assembly there will be compression and deformation in the metal parts. Lubricants not only provide for a no metal to metal contact and low friction but they also provide damping to the system.

I spoke with an application engineer at the HQ of Power Up Lubricants. I asked him to explain how moly type lubricants work. I had been under the impression that they worked into the metal surface and bonded there filling in any small surface irregularities in effect leaving the surface smoother. That is not the case. Moly products actually form a molecular matrix which envelopes the structure. Should there be any impact that coating can crack and break open which then leaves the equivalent of a rough spot until the moly components rebuild which takes some time to do. Your graphite infused lubricant while not as slippery as a moly product does not suffer the same issue as the moly as it does not encapsulate the metal surface. It simply provides a layer of slippery graphite and there is never any chance of roughness as with the moly. I will say that if a bearing is left undisturbed the moly product should work very well. But my impression is that the moly while slippery than graphite will not damp as effectively as the graphite. I would guess the graphite would have the sonic edge over a moly product. You could however add about 3% of a moly additive to your graphite lubricant and get the best of both.

Now the power Up engineer told me that there product would have a lower coefficient of friction than moly or PTFE loaded lubricants. So you could also experiment with Power Up as an additive to your graphite lubricant to lower the friction while maintaining and improving the damping qualities of the graphite lubricant. Again about a 3% mix would do.

As far as graphite lubricants go I would say that the larger the molecular structure of the graphite particles the better the damping qualities. Graphite is a flaky structure by nature. With the addition of the Power Up additive there is no longer any need to keep the graphite particles small (so as to make them an effective lubricant) they can be made as large as possible to enhance damping qualities. Do you know if the lubricant company who make your black oil provide specific data on the oil? Knowing the composition would make it easier to replicate (or improve on) while adding a superior lubricant at the same time.

I think the easiest way of making a custom task specific lubricant would be to find a top quality graphite based lubricant designed as a damping compound with the same viscosity as your black oil then add in the Power Up additive. Then you have the right weight of lubricant with maximum damping qualities with optimum lubricating qualities all in one bottle."

.

 

[SY]

These are last-generation technologies. Good lubricants, but not in the same class as far as friction, nonreactivity, and resistance to load as WS2 nano-fullerene.

The "conductive path stuff" makes no sense.

 

[jlsem]

The fullerenes act as very small ball bearings- they have high compressive strength and dynamically telescope in and out as the lube mechanism. There's some nice info on ApNano's site. You should be able to order relatively small quantities directly from them. You can load them in pretty heavily to most oil bases and make a nice, non-flowable grease.

Sounds ideal for machinery ways. I use a Teflon loaded grease on mine now. Sorry to wander off topic, but are you familiar with this type of application?

John

 

[sq225917]

Your record picks up/generates static by revolving in air, having a conductive path from record-spindle-bearing well to earth would help reduce/eliminate that build up. a conductive oil may help, particularly if you use a ceramic bearing.

I have the vaguest feeling that my SME 10 builds up less static when I use the metal bearing ball than when i use the ceramic one- could be me being a mentalist however.

A few manufacturers earth the bearing housing.

 

[Conrad Hoffman]

I've always thought a path to ground is a good idea. If you look at some tables with MDF plinths, there's no path from the bearing to ground at all. I usually add one with a large bleeder resistor to drain off charge in a controlled manner. Even with an unbroken oil film, I can't imagine a bearing with enough isolation resistance that charge wouldn't drain. OTOH, does belt drive = Van de Graaff generator?

I've got to try some of this nano stuff. My bearings tests to date haven't shown that any lubricant is truly up to a ball/flat point contact bearing. Lube is always forced out of the contact area and scoring occurs. I'm too lazy/stupid/both to work out the Hertzian contact between common bearing materials, but I'll bet the pressures would surprise you on some of the harder materials.

 

[SY]

Sounds ideal for machinery ways. I use a Teflon loaded grease on mine now. Sorry to wander off topic, but are you familiar with this type of application?

Somewhat. I originally ran into this stuff when working out some issues in a resonant acoustic mixing system. And it's been marketed (with some good backup data) to reduce engine wear.

Reshef Tenne, the developer, is a very smart and honest guy, top of his field in nanotechnology, so this isn't garage inventor stuff.