Hi there,
I have a pair of Technics SL-1210 MK2 turntables. There is a huge database of mythology about how various add-ons created by various companies can improve the sound quality of these and I was wondering if anyone has any views or experiences on some of this stuff.
I can neither afford nor want the hassle of an external power source and I am already using a decent cartridge so the potential next step for me would be to consider a tone-arm upgrade. These are rather pricey. Moreover, there is a school of thought that suggests that the biggest problem of the Technics arm is the cheap quality wiring in and this has got me thinking that maybe I should try that first.
At first look, the idea sounds like poppycock to me...I am one of those people that make their own interconnects by braiding cheap and cheerful solid core wire and am convinced that it sounds as good as oxygen-free-cryogenically-treated-special-alloy wire in some-near-extinct-animal's-leather sheath. This having read a few things about the theory behind it and having listened (or rather not listened) to the difference between different cables.
Nevertheless, I always like to keep an open mind. So, running the fear of starting up another behemoth of a thread like the "do cables matter" one, can I please ask people's opinions on whether tone-arm wire quality really matters?
Thanks,
Nikos
I have a pair of Technics SL-1210 MK2 turntables. There is a huge database of mythology about how various add-ons created by various companies can improve the sound quality of these and I was wondering if anyone has any views or experiences on some of this stuff.
I can neither afford nor want the hassle of an external power source and I am already using a decent cartridge so the potential next step for me would be to consider a tone-arm upgrade. These are rather pricey. Moreover, there is a school of thought that suggests that the biggest problem of the Technics arm is the cheap quality wiring in and this has got me thinking that maybe I should try that first.
At first look, the idea sounds like poppycock to me...I am one of those people that make their own interconnects by braiding cheap and cheerful solid core wire and am convinced that it sounds as good as oxygen-free-cryogenically-treated-special-alloy wire in some-near-extinct-animal's-leather sheath. This having read a few things about the theory behind it and having listened (or rather not listened) to the difference between different cables.
Nevertheless, I always like to keep an open mind. So, running the fear of starting up another behemoth of a thread like the "do cables matter" one, can I please ask people's opinions on whether tone-arm wire quality really matters?
Thanks,
Nikos
Well done that man!
These guys that believe that different bits of Copper can possibly conduct electricity in different manners are nuts.
Copper is Copper, end of story.
Oxygen free or not, makes not a single jot of diggerence to it's electrical capabilities.
Have a look at this website;
Elliott Sound Products - DIY Audio Articles
Go down to the Cables section and read some common sense.
This guy has REPEATEDLY challenged manufacturers and idiot showroom "boffins" to prove their points, Re. interconnects, etc. and NOT ONE has managed to do it.
I am not saying, by the way, that you can make decent cables from rubbish wire, but people that buy cables at £100/foot, etc. quite frankly deserve to be robbed.
Don't even get me started on idiots that belive a length of wire can be DIRECTIONAL to an AC signal!!!
Sandy
These guys that believe that different bits of Copper can possibly conduct electricity in different manners are nuts.
Copper is Copper, end of story.
Oxygen free or not, makes not a single jot of diggerence to it's electrical capabilities.
Have a look at this website;
Elliott Sound Products - DIY Audio Articles
Go down to the Cables section and read some common sense.
This guy has REPEATEDLY challenged manufacturers and idiot showroom "boffins" to prove their points, Re. interconnects, etc. and NOT ONE has managed to do it.
I am not saying, by the way, that you can make decent cables from rubbish wire, but people that buy cables at £100/foot, etc. quite frankly deserve to be robbed.
Don't even get me started on idiots that belive a length of wire can be DIRECTIONAL to an AC signal!!!
Sandy
Nikos: you have seen the polarity in opinions on this topic and the length that sides will go to to defend their position. The only way that you will ever answer this question of yours is to try some different wire in your arm.
The configuration that you choose along with the dielectric and its thickness will have the most impact. Regarding the quality of the conductor that too is a factor though to a lesser degree but since you do not require much the added cost should not be an issue.
The configuration that you choose along with the dielectric and its thickness will have the most impact. Regarding the quality of the conductor that too is a factor though to a lesser degree but since you do not require much the added cost should not be an issue.
Based on my research, it seems that mouse cable is great for a tonearm.
What I believe (based again on my research) is that the shielding of the signal wires from the cartridge to the phono preamp is quite important. So important in fact that I suggest (and plan to implement) a balanced configuration from my (home made) table to my (not yet decided upon, but probably a kit) phono preamp. Likely balanced out from the phono preamp to my regular preamp as well.
I believe, based on what I have read, that keeping noise out of this 'delicate' signal is paramount due to the exceptionally low voltages here, and a balanced connection is a very good way to accomplish this.
As to the wire itself: a good quality copper wire should be excellent. In the tone arm to phono preamp location, I could even justify silver wire for it's slightly lower resistance at the same cross section and length (as compared to copper); however if the length is short (and should be) it will not be a significant improvement. Also, if the connections on the silver wire are not first-rate, corrosion is a problem (more so than with copper for sure!)
long story short: I will be using mouse wire, and a balanced connection scheme. I believe this is the way to go.
What I believe (based again on my research) is that the shielding of the signal wires from the cartridge to the phono preamp is quite important. So important in fact that I suggest (and plan to implement) a balanced configuration from my (home made) table to my (not yet decided upon, but probably a kit) phono preamp. Likely balanced out from the phono preamp to my regular preamp as well.
I believe, based on what I have read, that keeping noise out of this 'delicate' signal is paramount due to the exceptionally low voltages here, and a balanced connection is a very good way to accomplish this.
As to the wire itself: a good quality copper wire should be excellent. In the tone arm to phono preamp location, I could even justify silver wire for it's slightly lower resistance at the same cross section and length (as compared to copper); however if the length is short (and should be) it will not be a significant improvement. Also, if the connections on the silver wire are not first-rate, corrosion is a problem (more so than with copper for sure!)
long story short: I will be using mouse wire, and a balanced connection scheme. I believe this is the way to go.
Now here is someone who knows what he's talking about.
Simple no nonsense logic applied with the best audio at it's root.
The only issue I have is with Silver being mentioned.
If you're going down that route, then your might as well have Gold wire?????
At the current handling we're looking at here, Copper is as good as anything else.
Next we'll have some moron stepping in with "skin effect" and the rest of the crap expounded by the audio "Elite".
Keep it simple and all will be well.
People with ordinary ears and ordinary hearing will not hear the slightest difference between wires made of different metals.
If they do, it's because they want to and nothing else.
Make your cables out of Lead! There will be no audible difference.
Sandy
Opps!
Sorry Sandy, I'm a skin effect proponant. The thinner the wire, the less the skin effect, that simple. I have rewired a Zeta, and an RS Labs A1. Both showed marked improvement in the midrange focus and clarity with the thinnest wire I could find. 40+ guage. A bitch to work with though.
Nikos, the absolute thinnest wire you can find is the best. Look in your local phone book, find someone that rewires and/or makes transformers. Go and see them, they will likely GIVE YOU the 35+ guage copper wire, it costs them pennies. The only difference between copper/silver is it's resistance. At the near zero amperage levels of a cartridge this is absolutely negligable. The only advantage of silver is that over time silver oxide DOES conduct electricity, other than that there is no difference. The only advantage of gold wire is that it is a non-crystaline metal (I think, hence the notion about zero-crystal wire). Try a couple of different guages, and start experimenting. DO NOT BRAID THE WIRE!!!!. The only reason to braid wire to to help exterminate RFI. Try the non braided first. Listen to the phono section at full volume without the tonearm lowered onto the album. What do you hear, write it down. Now braid the wire, turn the volume up. If there is no difference, than you do not have an RFI issue. If the non-braided version gives you more noise, than you do have to braid. Again that simple. As a reference, Mr. Walker of Walker Audio prefers his tonearm wire to hang in the air, unbraided, but only if RFI is not an issue.
Hope I haven't been too aggressive.
Cousin Billy
Sorry Sandy, I'm a skin effect proponant. The thinner the wire, the less the skin effect, that simple. I have rewired a Zeta, and an RS Labs A1. Both showed marked improvement in the midrange focus and clarity with the thinnest wire I could find. 40+ guage. A bitch to work with though.
Nikos, the absolute thinnest wire you can find is the best. Look in your local phone book, find someone that rewires and/or makes transformers. Go and see them, they will likely GIVE YOU the 35+ guage copper wire, it costs them pennies. The only difference between copper/silver is it's resistance. At the near zero amperage levels of a cartridge this is absolutely negligable. The only advantage of silver is that over time silver oxide DOES conduct electricity, other than that there is no difference. The only advantage of gold wire is that it is a non-crystaline metal (I think, hence the notion about zero-crystal wire). Try a couple of different guages, and start experimenting. DO NOT BRAID THE WIRE!!!!. The only reason to braid wire to to help exterminate RFI. Try the non braided first. Listen to the phono section at full volume without the tonearm lowered onto the album. What do you hear, write it down. Now braid the wire, turn the volume up. If there is no difference, than you do not have an RFI issue. If the non-braided version gives you more noise, than you do have to braid. Again that simple. As a reference, Mr. Walker of Walker Audio prefers his tonearm wire to hang in the air, unbraided, but only if RFI is not an issue.
Hope I haven't been too aggressive.
Cousin Billy
The skin effect thing is pretty much nonsense when it comes to audio. Sorry.
Three things matter:
1. Conductivity- when a cartridge has a source Z of just a couple ohms, there IS a difference using silver interconnect.
2. Shielding- Res ipsa.
3. Balance- the rational way to run a cartridge to preamp interface is balanced, with a high CMR.
Three things matter:
1. Conductivity- when a cartridge has a source Z of just a couple ohms, there IS a difference using silver interconnect.
2. Shielding- Res ipsa.
3. Balance- the rational way to run a cartridge to preamp interface is balanced, with a high CMR.
Uh, jeez Sandy - why not tell us how you really feel. 
Why the rant? But hey, I do agree that no exotics need be harmed. =)
The wire does matter. It needs to be flexible, light and not pick up hum or other noise. Can't vouch for mouse wire - looking at mine it seems rather thick and heavy - but can vouch for twisted litz wire. Very flexible and light. Not microphonic. Twisting it keeps the noise low, especially with a balanced input.
Have also seen lavaliere mic cable used. Also very thin, flexible and shielded.
Mogami W2901 is a good example.
Those are the qualities _I_ would look for in a tonearm wire.
Why the rant? But hey, I do agree that no exotics need be harmed. =)
The wire does matter. It needs to be flexible, light and not pick up hum or other noise. Can't vouch for mouse wire - looking at mine it seems rather thick and heavy - but can vouch for twisted litz wire. Very flexible and light. Not microphonic. Twisting it keeps the noise low, especially with a balanced input.
Have also seen lavaliere mic cable used. Also very thin, flexible and shielded.
Mogami W2901 is a good example.
Those are the qualities _I_ would look for in a tonearm wire.
Sandy: you are entitled to your opinions and you are free to express them along with everybody else. That's the beauty of open discussion forums like this. There is a wealth of experience available and there will always be disagreements and discussion.
I do however object to you describing those who do not think exactly as you do as "nuts" "Boffins" "idiots" and "morons". This is simply a form of passive aggressive intimidation and does nothing to either stimulate open discussion or to impress others regarding your level of expertise. Please refrain form such behavior in your future posts as it adds nothing and only detracts form this thread.
I do however object to you describing those who do not think exactly as you do as "nuts" "Boffins" "idiots" and "morons". This is simply a form of passive aggressive intimidation and does nothing to either stimulate open discussion or to impress others regarding your level of expertise. Please refrain form such behavior in your future posts as it adds nothing and only detracts form this thread.
Point taken but as someone who has been in the electronics industry for 30+ years, I am sick fed up of those who put forward subjective argument without the slightest shred of scientific proof.
I have been an electronics designer and prototyper for many years and believe entirely in solid test evidence, shown on electronic test equipment.
Show me on any form of test equipment that cable "A" is audibly better than cable "B" of similar construction and I will happily eat humble pie.
As I posted earlier, Have a look at the cable articles put forward by Rod Elliot here;
Elliott Sound Products - DIY Audio Articles
No one, absolutely NO ONE has come forward with any evidence that one cable of similar construction is audibly different from any other.
Subjective testing is just that, subjective and as qualitative data is a waste of space.
Sandy.
Huh?
Subjective arguments don't require the slightest shred of scientific proof. It's objective arguments that require that.
se
Until such time as there is a solid body of scientifically valid correlation between test measurements and what we hear, these measurements have the same validity (ie very little) as sighted listening tests in terms of "proving" how well something sounds.
Further, most of what passes for blind listening tests would fail scruntiny as to scientific validity.
dave
What SY says!
Make sure that you understand what he says, figure out how it applies to your setup, ask more questions, if you don't get it.
Every other response to your question that I have seen so far is just pent up "cable discussion frustration".
I would just change the order of his answer and put shielding first, silver second, and balanced third. Balanced is not always an easy option.
Make sure that you understand what he says, figure out how it applies to your setup, ask more questions, if you don't get it.
Every other response to your question that I have seen so far is just pent up "cable discussion frustration".
I would just change the order of his answer and put shielding first, silver second, and balanced third. Balanced is not always an easy option.
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The point is that this (and other) forums have seen countless, endless wire debates. The OP acknowledges this but is curious as to whether he might do better than stock wires.
No need to beat the dead horse, we've all read the cable arguments ad nauseam. There are some very good reasons for using certain types of wire. No voodoo needed. And really no need to rant against cable voodoo. Let's try to concentrate on what might actually make a difference.
You haven't been reading carefully enough.
No need to beat the dead horse, we've all read the cable arguments ad nauseam. There are some very good reasons for using certain types of wire. No voodoo needed. And really no need to rant against cable voodoo. Let's try to concentrate on what might actually make a difference.
You haven't been reading carefully enough.
You haven't been reading carefully enough.
I missed the Mogami W2901 and twisted litz, sorry about that. Four words out of 4000+ already. Let me rephrase this: "low yield".
What SY says, and panomaniac's last paragraph.
Everyone has concentrated on the electrical and RFI aspects of the wire in an arm, but nobody has mentioned mechanical or piezo. So I will.
You want thin multi-strand carefully-dressed wire in order not to impede the arm's movement. Test the friction of an arm with and without wiring. On a good (low friction) arm, it's really difficult to keep that low friction once the wiring is in.
The dressing is important because you don't want arm movement to cause the wires to be dragged over a surface (or worse, an edge). So a low friction insulator would be good, like PTFE. Which brings us to...
Piezo-electricity. PTFE suffers from the piezo-electric effect. Bend it and electrons move to develop a charge. Moving coil cartridges are such low impedance sources that they should shunt this charge so effectively that the voltage developed would be negligible. That might not be true for moving magnets.
Oh, and for those wondering why I advocated multi-strand, single strand breaks. My first arms were wired with thin enamelled copper wire but it didn't take long before the wire snapped.
On electrical effects, I can't think of any reason not to twist the wires of each channel to reject RFI. Do the twist, you know it makes sense.
You want thin multi-strand carefully-dressed wire in order not to impede the arm's movement. Test the friction of an arm with and without wiring. On a good (low friction) arm, it's really difficult to keep that low friction once the wiring is in.
The dressing is important because you don't want arm movement to cause the wires to be dragged over a surface (or worse, an edge). So a low friction insulator would be good, like PTFE. Which brings us to...
Piezo-electricity. PTFE suffers from the piezo-electric effect. Bend it and electrons move to develop a charge. Moving coil cartridges are such low impedance sources that they should shunt this charge so effectively that the voltage developed would be negligible. That might not be true for moving magnets.
Oh, and for those wondering why I advocated multi-strand, single strand breaks. My first arms were wired with thin enamelled copper wire but it didn't take long before the wire snapped.
On electrical effects, I can't think of any reason not to twist the wires of each channel to reject RFI. Do the twist, you know it makes sense.
I agree with you, CB, about skin effect having an "effect" on the sound (I would've posted the link to a wire-guage URL that I use, which shows a frequency vs. wire guage table, for the frequency to completely permeate the metal but I'm not at my home computer at the moment).
But, from my experience, I can't agree with your bald statement that "the thinner the better"!
A few years ago I made two mods to a phono stage that a dealer mate had produced. The first mod was to rip out the PS that he had used and replace it with something that an amplifier-designer mate of mine had developed. The second was to replace the cheap coax that he'd used for input & output with a twisted pair consisting of 30g, solid-core, teflon-insulated copper wire. (Because I'm a fan of thin, solid-core wire!
)My dealer mate had to admit that my PS made his phono stage sound much better ... but, when we played one particular LP, we noticed that mine didn't have the bass extension that his stock unit had.
When he took the lid off and saw my thin wire, he said "That's the problem!" So he removed my 30g twisted pairs and replaced it with some cheap coax he happened to have handy. Immediately the bass was there!
His theory is that thin wire is fine ... but care has to be taken to support it adequately. IE. triboelectric effects are at work here (a subject at least as contentious as skin effect!
) and the thin wire, because it has such little mass, will move ... and this loses bass! Since then, for ICs and internal hookup wires, I always use 3x30g wires for signal twisted with a 24g wire for ground, to give more mass.
But of course, for arm re-wiring, you need the thinnest you can work with. But using the same theory as above, it would certainly be better to braid the 2 pairs - and then twist them together (to give more mass to each wire).
Regards,
Andy
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