Re-lubricating old DUAL turntable

[CurlsOnKeys]

Hi all,

I have inherited an old DUAL 1010 Turntable on which I recently successfully restored the audio-connections (see other thread).
During the restoration I noticed that a lot of the grease on the bearings has dried out, so I'd like to re-lubricate the turntable. I also think I have to re-adjust some screws to completely fix the table, according to the service manual.

But first things first: re-lubricating. In the service manual, 5 different types of lube are specified, but, as you might expect, most of them don't exist anymore. I looked around on the internet (google, dual-reference.com etc...), found some substitutes, but also found lots of discussions about what to do, what not to do, what to use and what not to use, so I thought to ask it myself (italic = suggested in the service manual, bold = substitute)

- Fine bearing oil (such as Shell AB11) for motor bearings and sintered bearings: well, most of the discussions are about this motor oil. Should I use synthetic oil or just "natural" motor oil? Most sites and resources seem to suggest synthetic motor oil (10W30 or 10W40)
The thing is, my motor seems to run quiet well, doesn't slow down, doesn't produce strange noises, so I'm not really sure if I should change the oil. And if I should, I don't exactly know where to put the oil, the motor seems like a closed piece of gear (see picture).
IMG_0952.jpg

- thicker, non-gumming oil (such as Calypsol WIK 700) for sliding and bearing points: I can't seem to find a substitute for this one and I'm pretty sure I have to re-lubricate the bearing and sliding points, since the oil has dried out. Any suggestions?

- adhesive oil (such as Renotac) for the turntable and drive wheel: Renotac no 342 should do the job I guess, not sure if I have to lubricate these parts, but it doesn't seem very hard so I might as well do it.

- molykote paste G (or equal) for points where greater pressure and friction occur: this is something I also really need to do (especially on the main cam where the grease has completely dried out (see pic)), but I'm also not sure about a substitute for this one...
IMG_0951.jpg

Of course before I apply any new oil I'm going to clean of all the existing grease (as suggested on dual-reference.com)

Since it's the first time I'm going to do this, any help would be more than welcome! Thanks in advance!

S.

[coolmaster]

For a start, its always best and once for all time, ensure all the areas or parts you intend to re-lubricate with alternate lubricants are all surgically clean as possible.
Take your own sweet time to do all this for a perfect job. Dried or gummed up grease MUST be entirely removed.

Lightest synthetic motor lube is quite suitable for motor bearings.
Silicone grease or grease specifically meant for moving plastic parts are very suitable.
Spindle bearing lube may need further research as some specify gear lube, some specify machine oils (without all those motor lube additives suited for combustion engine)

[CurlsOnKeys]

As a substitute for molykote, would white grease do the job?
Thanks

[Magura]

The best solution is to give the application engineers at Shell a call, and ask for the equivalent of the lubricants specified in the user manual.

As Cool wrote, make sure that everything is ultra clean, before applying a new type of lubricant.

White grease???? You really have to up your standards here. White grease can be just about anything. It's like saying that any food is just "food".

Magura

[CurlsOnKeys]

Originally Posted by Magura

The best solution is to give the application engineers at Shell a call, and ask for the equivalent of the lubricants specified in the user manual.

As Cool wrote, make sure that everything is ultra clean, before applying a new type of lubricant.

White grease???? You really have to up your standards here. White grease can be just about anything. It's like saying that any food is just "food".

Magura

Really? :-) I've seen it on a couple of sites, so I thought it was not just about anything, but really something specific (kinda new to this :-)). Well, it's a brand from a local DIY-hobby-shop, says (in Dutch): White Grease. For lubrication. Heat and water resistant. Can be used to grease bearings, springs, locks, chains, gliding parts, mechanical parts etc... So it seems pretty ok. It's not really that thick I've noticed (tried it on a spare metal part), but I don't know if that's a problem. It also says it should not be exposed to temperatures higher than 50°C but I don't think the temperature on the gliding parts will be that high?

The thing is: I've been searching for quiet a while now; oils: no problem, but good grease is pretty hard to find. Went to 3 (large) DIY-stores, eventually went to a HONDA-dealer and he had some black, thick grease, but the man behind the counter thought it would be too thick. I didn't see the brand, think it was ceramic grease. The original turntable-grease was molykote, but it seems they only sell to companies.

So that's why I hoped my white grease would be ok enough :-) Or should I go for the thicker, black (unknown-brand) grease from the Honda-dealer?

[stratus46]

Originally Posted by CurlsOnKeys

Hi all,

I have inherited an old DUAL 1010 Turntable on which I recently successfully restored the audio-connections (see other thread).
During the restoration I noticed that a lot of the grease on the bearings has dried out, so I'd like to re-lubricate the turntable. I also think I have to re-adjust some screws to completely fix the table, according to the service manual.

But first things first: re-lubricating. In the service manual, 5 different types of lube are specified, but, as you might expect, most of them don't exist anymore. I looked around on the internet (google, dual-reference.com etc...), found some substitutes, but also found lots of discussions about what to do, what not to do, what to use and what not to use, so I thought to ask it myself (italic = suggested in the service manual, bold = substitute)

- Fine bearing oil (such as Shell AB11) for motor bearings and sintered bearings: well, most of the discussions are about this motor oil. Should I use synthetic oil or just "natural" motor oil? Most sites and resources seem to suggest synthetic motor oil (10W30 or 10W40)
The thing is, my motor seems to run quiet well, doesn't slow down, doesn't produce strange noises, so I'm not really sure if I should change the oil. And if I should, I don't exactly know where to put the oil, the motor seems like a closed piece of gear (see picture).
Attachment 162309

- thicker, non-gumming oil (such as Calypsol WIK 700) for sliding and bearing points: I can't seem to find a substitute for this one and I'm pretty sure I have to re-lubricate the bearing and sliding points, since the oil has dried out. Any suggestions?

- adhesive oil (such as Renotac) for the turntable and drive wheel: Renotac no 342 should do the job I guess, not sure if I have to lubricate these parts, but it doesn't seem very hard so I might as well do it.

- molykote paste G (or equal) for points where greater pressure and friction occur: this is something I also really need to do (especially on the main cam where the grease has completely dried out (see pic)), but I'm also not sure about a substitute for this one...
Attachment 162308

Of course before I apply any new oil I'm going to clean of all the existing grease (as suggested on dual-reference.com)

Since it's the first time I'm going to do this, any help would be more than welcome! Thanks in advance!

S.

The original grease used by Dual was Shell Alvania #2. A superior substitute is Nye Rheolube 368-AX1. I was looking for a sub for the Shell product in the early 90's and when I called Nye and talked to an engineer, he said they had something better. It was the first time I found ANYBODY who even _knew_ of Shell Alvania #2. It isn't cheap but it IS better than Shell. I've insisted on it at work to replace Sony SGL. IIRC the motor oil was Isoflex PDP-40. Nye Oil II is a synthetic oil at least as good as Isoflex. The viscous damping oil was Wacker Siliconoil 500,000 (it's been a long time since I worked on a table). I don't know of a sub for this.

First time tearing down a turntable? Take LOTS of digital pix before you start. Back in the day I would disassemble the motor and clean / oil it. Take out the 'main lever' and cam and clean / lube it. Pay extra attention to a largisih metal link on the plastic cam that selects the type of cycle - next disc or stop. There is a much smaller 2 piece link for end of disc trip. It needs to be clean but I don't remember if it should even have any lube on it.

G²

[CurlsOnKeys]

Hi all,

just wanted to say I found the black molykote grease somewhere. Relubricated the main cam and the start/stop/manual levers, put everything back together and it works! Never thought that seeing a record drop and tonearm swing at the exact right moment could give such a nice feeling
And since I changed the cartridge to a magnetic one and the audio connectors to RCA, the turntable also sounds like a bell on my home-stereo!

Thanks for all the help!

S.

[orlandoc]

I have a Dual 1229 that's been converted to manual mode only (heresy, I know, but it works for me!). My TT's motor has recently begun to make some scraping noises, so it's probably time to lube the motor bearings. My question is how do I get to the bearings? Do I really need to split the motor? If so, how is that done? There are two screws on the motor housing, but once removed, the black top and bottom pieces do not budge. I don't want to force or pry anything apart with undo force. Am I missing something?

Any help from the pros would be greatly appreciated!

[stratus46]

Originally Posted by orlandoc

I have a Dual 1229 that's been converted to manual mode only (heresy, I know, but it works for me!). My TT's motor has recently begun to make some scraping noises, so it's probably time to lube the motor bearings. My question is how do I get to the bearings? Do I really need to split the motor? If so, how is that done? There are two screws on the motor housing, but once removed, the black top and bottom pieces do not budge. I don't want to force or pry anything apart with undo force. Am I missing something?

Any help from the pros would be greatly appreciated!

May be a little late if it's already making noise but it's worth a try. First take a black Sharpie and make a mark on the outer edge from top shell to core to bottom shell. You'll like it when re-assembling. Remove the screws and with the motor in your hand, use the handle end of a screwdriver as a 'hammer' to loosen the top / bottom shell from the core. Then just pull the shells off the core. If you attempt to 'pry' it apart, be sure you don't damage the windings. The bearings are sintered bronze self aligning in the top / bottom shells. If there is old dirt and goo it will need to be cleaned out. Personally I prefer Xylene but it's a nasty carcinogen though easily available at the Home Depot in the US. Acetone is less harsh and alcohol even milder. If it were mine I would use Nye Oil II synthetic to lubricate the bearings. There is a cotton pad surrounding each bearing that should be nearly saturated. I believe the factory oil was Isoflex PDP 40 (?) but the last time I worked on one was around 1978.

Get a little oil 'started' on the shaft top and bottom before inserting the bottom of the shaft into the bottom shell. Line up your Sharpie marks and re-assemble it. The Dual motor shaft looked like a cylindrical mirror when it was new. Hopefully it's still that way.

Post some pics to refresh my memory.

G²

[orlandoc]

Thanks for the prompt reply! I had the thing apart today, and tried to split the motor. The thing will not come apart! I gouged it pretty badly before I gave up.

While I had the motor off, I used a pencil type lubricating tube to get some oil into the motor via the hole in the top of the casing (near the spindle). I also lightly sprayed some WD40 into the motor as well, and let it sit. This may not be the correct lubrication method or oils, but it will have to do.

After I reassembled the turntable I tested it, and things seems to have quieted down quite a bit. Not sure if this is permanent, but it's good for now. The only thing that bothers me is that I have grown quite attached to the 1229. I have a Music Hall 2.2 LE, and can honestly say that the Dual beats the pants of of that thing in every way shape or form (except for the sexy red paint on the MH) with any cartridge/stylus combination I have tried.

Again, thanks for the response!