Hello folks,
I am wondering what people would expect from a GREAT MC transformer.
The reason I am asking is we manufacture high quality toroidal transformers for ribbon and condenser microphones and looking if there would be a market if we come up with transformers for MC application.
What would be the parameters people are looking for that application: source impedance, operating levels and headroom, ratio, core materials, shielding, cost, what people are missing in the current commercial MC transformers, etc. etc. etc.
Please post your thoughts here, and who knows, we might come up with something that community would be interested in.
Best regards,
Mark Fouxman
Samar Audio & Microphone Design
I am wondering what people would expect from a GREAT MC transformer.
The reason I am asking is we manufacture high quality toroidal transformers for ribbon and condenser microphones and looking if there would be a market if we come up with transformers for MC application.
What would be the parameters people are looking for that application: source impedance, operating levels and headroom, ratio, core materials, shielding, cost, what people are missing in the current commercial MC transformers, etc. etc. etc.
Please post your thoughts here, and who knows, we might come up with something that community would be interested in.
Best regards,
Mark Fouxman
Samar Audio & Microphone Design
Hi Mark
I prefer the sound with a MC step-up transformer than the high gain phono, all my friends and mine are custom made from Electric Print Audio, with silver, different cart need different load, gain 10 times is good for most low out-put carts, the only big issue is hum pick up, in my experience, better with a round housing then it can be 360 degree turn when it install into phono amp's surface to adjust hum pick-up. one more interest thing is a double housing, the transformer and inter and out side housing all isolate, transformer's iron and out side housing ground to the chassis, but the inter housing connect to a 10 to 15 dcv (open circute voltage only no current ), will make the sound quality change , if people don't believe that then try switch from 3v to 20v listen the different, you will get the answer
regard Tony Ma
I prefer the sound with a MC step-up transformer than the high gain phono, all my friends and mine are custom made from Electric Print Audio, with silver, different cart need different load, gain 10 times is good for most low out-put carts, the only big issue is hum pick up, in my experience, better with a round housing then it can be 360 degree turn when it install into phono amp's surface to adjust hum pick-up. one more interest thing is a double housing, the transformer and inter and out side housing all isolate, transformer's iron and out side housing ground to the chassis, but the inter housing connect to a 10 to 15 dcv (open circute voltage only no current ), will make the sound quality change , if people don't believe that then try switch from 3v to 20v listen the different, you will get the answer
regard Tony Ma
Tony,
Toroidal transformers pick up MUCH LESS hum than EI (is it what Electra Print uses?) or even UI cores. In fact, in most of the cases we don't use any shielding for ribbon microphone transformers (usually, ratio of about 1:30--1:40).
So here would be another question, do folks make their own enclosure for the stereo pair? Then what material they usually use? Iron, mu-metal, etc.... If so, then most likely it won't need any shielding. On the other hand, we could pot the transformer in a mu-metal can, no problem, which should be more than adequate. It'd add some $15-$20 to the final price.
From top of my head, I'd think for 2.5 Ohm source we could get the sec. DCR in some 5-10 Ohm range, depending on a transformer. If needed, we could go even down. Would it be good enough?
With our automatic winding machinery we use sectioned winding, so with those values the ringing should be way out of bandwidth.
The strappable would be no problem, however, what initially we were looking at is to make a range of transformers to custom fit a range of specific cartridges. In other words, instead of one generic transformer (kinda "fit it all" size) to make a range of different transformers highly optimized to each individual cartridge. The main questions here would be:
1) Is the optimized design would be something what people will be interested in, or some more "generic" types would have more appeal, and
2) What popular cartridges people use and how many transformer models would cover MOST of the cartridges out there.
Please keep them coming.
Best regards, M
Hi Mark
I am a DIYER, I did the enclosure by myself, not too many materials for me to shoose I use copper pipe with caps from pumping supply, the double housing not work for hum, hum can be reduced by turning direction, (different location of the phono amp get difference) add dcv to the inter enclosure result in sound quality change, add 3v sound soft but up to 20v that sound too hard like CD, so 13v is just good for my cart and amp, I don't know why ? maybe those voltage potential erase the self capacitor and self inductance of the wire
Tony Ma
I am a DIYER, I did the enclosure by myself, not too many materials for me to shoose I use copper pipe with caps from pumping supply, the double housing not work for hum, hum can be reduced by turning direction, (different location of the phono amp get difference) add dcv to the inter enclosure result in sound quality change, add 3v sound soft but up to 20v that sound too hard like CD, so 13v is just good for my cart and amp, I don't know why ? maybe those voltage potential erase the self capacitor and self inductance of the wire
Tony Ma
Foil E/S screen between primary and secondary. Balanced leakage capacitance and inductance at each end of the primary. Primary winding floating. Yes, the primary ought to be good enough to give a nice CMRR with a balanced floating source. 1:10 ratio should cope with most cartridges. Lowest cartridge DC resistance I've seen is 3 Ohm; 10 Ohm seems to be typical.
I'm currently using a Denon DL-103R, and a copy of a Mac head amplifier which has 4 set of inputs (10, 20, 40 & 100 ohm) allowing adjustment to suit the cartridge's output characteristics. What suprised me is how significant these input taps are, and that the cartridge prefers the 20 ohm input despite the cartridge being rated for a 40 ohm load. Based on this, and the variations of input impedance among different preamplifiers (which would be reflected to the cartridge), I would think that a multi-tapped primary would be a very desirable feature. It would allow use with most equipment, and experimentation by the user to best suit his system and tastes.
I've been wanting to try some transformers, but have been hesitant because I would most probably have to go through quite a few to hit the combo which works the best. I'd buy something with adjustable input taps because I'd be fairly confident there would be a setting that would work well.
I've been wanting to try some transformers, but have been hesitant because I would most probably have to go through quite a few to hit the combo which works the best. I'd buy something with adjustable input taps because I'd be fairly confident there would be a setting that would work well.
Thank you Gentlemen for your insights!
Although taps would not be a problem. Would people prefer leads or pins for the taps?
Well, yes of course. But on the other hand there is no real need to make the inductance larger than it is necessary for an adequate low end response, as in a chain it will lead to worsening of the other transormer parameters.
Currently we are working with both, 80%Ni, and annealed Amorthous cores, with the preference to Amorhous ones.
We are currently working on our website. Will let you know once it is up and running.
Best, Mark Fouxman
Samar Audio & Microphone Design
Although taps would not be a problem. Would people prefer leads or pins for the taps?
Well, yes of course. But on the other hand there is no real need to make the inductance larger than it is necessary for an adequate low end response, as in a chain it will lead to worsening of the other transormer parameters.
Currently we are working with both, 80%Ni, and annealed Amorthous cores, with the preference to Amorhous ones.
We are currently working on our website. Will let you know once it is up and running.
Best, Mark Fouxman
Samar Audio & Microphone Design
"Although taps would not be a problem. Would people prefer leads or pins for the taps?"
Personally I'd be happy with either. A octal base would be good (8 or 11 pin as required). What would be really nice would be DIP switches on the top or side of the housing - maybe with a little screw-on cover? It would make changing taps easier for the non-DIYers (probably a good piece of the market) that are not handy with a soldering pencil.
Build it, and I'll buy it. I think many would.
Personally I'd be happy with either. A octal base would be good (8 or 11 pin as required). What would be really nice would be DIP switches on the top or side of the housing - maybe with a little screw-on cover? It would make changing taps easier for the non-DIYers (probably a good piece of the market) that are not handy with a soldering pencil.
Build it, and I'll buy it. I think many would.
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Hi Mark
how about your ribbon miccrophone ? I am using Royer ribbon with tube and a tube pre amp which made by myself, also I made the cable with silver replace the one come with for better sound quality, recorder is Studer A80, mainly for strings and piano
regard Tony Ma
Hello Folks,
I received a few inquires as for the progress, so here is the latest report.
Yes, we went through extensive R&D and the prototype is ready and has been tested in a few diehard audiophiles homes
.
The first impressions are:
1) Since it is a toroidal transformer, as we expected, we did not have problems with hum. In fact, the transformers under the test were not even encapsulated, but just were hanging in a cheapo Aluminum Hammond enclosure. This proves the point that toroidals have an excellent noise rejection. The proper grounding is sufficient to keep the hum down.
2) Since the DC resistances are very low (for 10 Ohm cartridge the Primary DCR is only 0.58 Ohm and the Secondary is 10 Ohm, which is about tenth we saw in ANY high end transformers), they had very low noise (hiss) and very low losses.
3) The annealed Amorthous core (which we also use in our range of High-End professional ribbon microphone transformers) has exceptional sonic qualities--very relaxed and pure, low distortion, high details and transparency, no fuzziness 3D sound. There is no hint of that annoying mids-forward qualities usually associated with cheap cores. It has very deep bass and no any "blanket" in mid-top range.
At this point we feel we can put these transformers to the market. While for less advanced DIYers it will still take time to make appropriate shielding cases and add some features, those who feel comfortable enough to make their own enclosures and can hold a pencil soldering iron can greatly benefit from our introductory promotions some time next week.
We'd greatly appreciate your input on where the places the prices can be cut. In our view those areas are:
a) The transformers can be shipped encapsulated in our standard laser engraved plastic packaging--experienced DIYers place them in their own steel, or mu metal (if you wish)--saves quite a bit of $$$.
b) While we can make multitap transformers (in fact, 1:10-1:20 was the model we were testing), any additional tap is additional money (time to stop-start the machine, termination or the wire leads, additional holes in casing, etc.), so think only what is most important for you. The "base" model, with only one "fixed" Pri would be the cheapest.
c) So far we have 1:10 and 1:20 models completely worked out. They should cover the MOST of the cartridges on the market. Any other ratios for any cartridge impedances are not a problem... for a modest additional fee. Do we need to work out any additional ratios? Then what are they?
Best,
Mark Fouxman
Samar Audio & Microphone Design
I received a few inquires as for the progress, so here is the latest report.
Yes, we went through extensive R&D and the prototype is ready and has been tested in a few diehard audiophiles homes
. The first impressions are:
1) Since it is a toroidal transformer, as we expected, we did not have problems with hum. In fact, the transformers under the test were not even encapsulated, but just were hanging in a cheapo Aluminum Hammond enclosure. This proves the point that toroidals have an excellent noise rejection. The proper grounding is sufficient to keep the hum down.
2) Since the DC resistances are very low (for 10 Ohm cartridge the Primary DCR is only 0.58 Ohm and the Secondary is 10 Ohm, which is about tenth we saw in ANY high end transformers), they had very low noise (hiss) and very low losses.
3) The annealed Amorthous core (which we also use in our range of High-End professional ribbon microphone transformers) has exceptional sonic qualities--very relaxed and pure, low distortion, high details and transparency, no fuzziness 3D sound. There is no hint of that annoying mids-forward qualities usually associated with cheap cores. It has very deep bass and no any "blanket" in mid-top range.
At this point we feel we can put these transformers to the market. While for less advanced DIYers it will still take time to make appropriate shielding cases and add some features, those who feel comfortable enough to make their own enclosures and can hold a pencil soldering iron can greatly benefit from our introductory promotions some time next week.
We'd greatly appreciate your input on where the places the prices can be cut. In our view those areas are:
a) The transformers can be shipped encapsulated in our standard laser engraved plastic packaging--experienced DIYers place them in their own steel, or mu metal (if you wish)--saves quite a bit of $$$.
b) While we can make multitap transformers (in fact, 1:10-1:20 was the model we were testing), any additional tap is additional money (time to stop-start the machine, termination or the wire leads, additional holes in casing, etc.), so think only what is most important for you. The "base" model, with only one "fixed" Pri would be the cheapest.
c) So far we have 1:10 and 1:20 models completely worked out. They should cover the MOST of the cartridges on the market. Any other ratios for any cartridge impedances are not a problem... for a modest additional fee. Do we need to work out any additional ratios? Then what are they?
Best,
Mark Fouxman
Samar Audio & Microphone Design
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I think keeping the costs sane is a good initial approach, you can always introduce exotics later in the process if there seems to be a good market for them.
I hope you offer something reasonably priced for the Denon DL-103 series of cartridges - a 1:10 ratio is all that is required here IMHO.. I've found loading not to be that critical with mine if the transformer is well behaved, the cartridge seemed tolerant of 50 - 500 ohm loads with a good transformer.. (I'm using partridge 977 straight into 47K, and it is a much better match than you might suspect. I tried a number of different vintage transformers before these.)
Wire terminations for me would be just fine, wire of course should be of usable length - say 8" which the end user could shorten as needed. Your standard encapsulated package seems fine..
I hope you offer something reasonably priced for the Denon DL-103 series of cartridges - a 1:10 ratio is all that is required here IMHO.. I've found loading not to be that critical with mine if the transformer is well behaved, the cartridge seemed tolerant of 50 - 500 ohm loads with a good transformer.. (I'm using partridge 977 straight into 47K, and it is a much better match than you might suspect. I tried a number of different vintage transformers before these.)
Wire terminations for me would be just fine, wire of course should be of usable length - say 8" which the end user could shorten as needed. Your standard encapsulated package seems fine..
Thank you Kevinkr for your input!
It really depends on what people think of "sane"
. Two main problems with toroidal transformers are high cost of the core and high cost of the manufacturing, especially, to achieve such low DCRs, low capacitance and losses. In any case, we make them in house and will be selling direct, with no "middle man", so that will greatly help to keep the prices down. As for a guide line, we are trying and aiming for under $200 for the mu-metal encapsulated, multitap 1:10 1:20 version. The "stripped" version will be quite a bit cheaper. Also, we will offer some sweet introductory promotions, so hopefully, this sounds "sane" enough
Best, M
Thank you Kevinkr for your input!
It really depends on what people think of "sane"
As for a guide line, we are trying and aiming for under $200 for the mu-metal encapsulated, multitap 1:10 1:20 version. The "stripped" version will be quite a bit cheaper. Also, we will offer some sweet introductory promotions, so hopefully, this sounds "sane" enough
Best, M
Sounds pretty on target to me, is that per pair price? I'd definitely be interested.
The high cost of acceptably good SUTs I think keeps a lot of people away from LOMC cartridges - considering that there are a fair number of these cartridges that are really no more expensive than budget HOMC or MM types. I was shocked at how much better the $500 Zu/Denon DL-103 sounds compared to anything else I've owned in the past 10yrs - the gift of a set of SUTs (which I am no longer using, having found something better..
) allowed me to make this choice - otherwise I would have bought another MM or HOMC to avoid the cost of transformers.
Marik,
My personal interest would be for 10:1, with wire leads. The plastic case would, I think, be fine. Any hints on pricing for that configuration?
I'm also curious if you have any distortion and/or frequency response plots available? Preferably over a range of reasonable source and load impedances and signal levels. Hope I am not asking too much
Regards,
My personal interest would be for 10:1, with wire leads. The plastic case would, I think, be fine. Any hints on pricing for that configuration?
I'm also curious if you have any distortion and/or frequency response plots available? Preferably over a range of reasonable source and load impedances and signal levels. Hope I am not asking too much
Regards,
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