I'm thinking about buying a used TT to use as a reference and maybe for experiments with different arms. I'm not sure how much I want to spend at the moment, but probably between $500 and $1000 US. I'm in the middle of selling off a bunch of stuff that will provide some funding for this project. I already have $62 in my PayPal account, yay!
I want something that I can get parts for, thats easy to work on, and that I can swap out the arm for a different one if necessary. Belt drive. Something that will maintain its value would also be nice.
Some time ago, I was thinking a Thorens would be the thing to get, but I can't remember what model I was interested in. Might have been a 160.
Any suggestions? Do I need to think more than $1000?
I want something that I can get parts for, thats easy to work on, and that I can swap out the arm for a different one if necessary. Belt drive. Something that will maintain its value would also be nice.
Some time ago, I was thinking a Thorens would be the thing to get, but I can't remember what model I was interested in. Might have been a 160.
Any suggestions? Do I need to think more than $1000?
Maybe a Rega Planar 3 (or P3 as they are dubbed these days) with the RB300 tone-arm, at least the tone-arm goes very far so it's not the first thing you need to tweak or replace except for the wiring and earthing then.
Sure the Rega have some short comings, but is regarded for the money a no brainer and has potential for tweaking and the model has been for a good long time so you will find after market stuff as well as lot of DIY tweaks.
I also think Project have some interesting models too, check out the net for reviews.
Just my 2 c's.
Sure the Rega have some short comings, but is regarded for the money a no brainer and has potential for tweaking and the model has been for a good long time so you will find after market stuff as well as lot of DIY tweaks.
I also think Project have some interesting models too, check out the net for reviews.
Just my 2 c's.
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If you need the turntable as reference and experiments for tonearms then I guess you'll need a better one than a P3.Your thought of a Thorens TD160 is a much better one.You can change armboards easy something you cannot do easily with rega.The TD160 is also suspended sub-chassis if you like such designs.A real timeless "reference" able to allow a very high sound quality.
TD160 does not give much latitude for mounting a tonearm
I've swapped in many an arm onto 160s and i always considered it a one time deal.
A Rega 2 or Rega 3 is a better TT IMO, but unless you build a new plinth or route out a chunk of the existing plinth and install a removable armboard, you are limited to whatever hole has already been drilled. For someting that allows lots of arm swaps you'll need something with a removable armboard... Thorens TD125, Oracle, Linn LP12, Ariston to name a few -- they all have their own issues thou.
(i've owned all of the above mentioned)
Personally, i'd go the "build your own plinth" route, which means just finding a suitable motor, platter/bearing assembly. I've some left over LP12 bits here i will eventually do this with.
dave
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I've swapped in many an arm onto 160s and i always considered it a one time deal.
A Rega 2 or Rega 3 is a better TT IMO, but unless you build a new plinth or route out a chunk of the existing plinth and install a removable armboard, you are limited to whatever hole has already been drilled. For someting that allows lots of arm swaps you'll need something with a removable armboard... Thorens TD125, Oracle, Linn LP12, Ariston to name a few -- they all have their own issues thou.
(i've owned all of the above mentioned)
Personally, i'd go the "build your own plinth" route, which means just finding a suitable motor, platter/bearing assembly. I've some left over LP12 bits here i will eventually do this with.
dave
True about slight difficulty with limited space for replacing tonearms on the 160 but most of them will present no problem if armboards are drilled correctly.TD 160 SUPER has different sub chassis hole and can be a better bet.As budget is around $1000 then many nice options are higher than that.Finally,I think that rega's plinth is not solid throughout so drilling for different arms or even armboards might cause some damage to the plinth if accidentally you hit non solid area when drilling.Perhaps TD125 as Planet10 suggests would be nice,imo superior to both TD160 and rega.
Newer Regas may be different (as they go more & more low mass), but all the vintage Regas i've dealt with are solid. Given how simple the plinth is, and that to properly install a removable armboard, you'd have to disassemble the whole table, i'd just build another desicated plinth and tuck the original aside for potential resale.
dave
dave
Some thoughts on Reference TTs
The first decision need to be "Simple vs Complex". If your aim is a reference, then you want a basic design that is stable and predictable while being refined enough that it will show you the diferences between one arm and another; one cartridge and another.
Simple (plinth, motor, bearing, platter) tables like the Rega (ProJect, MH, etc) are very stable and predictable and, if well enough engineered, will fill the role as reference better IMO than complex tables with tuned sub-chassis (like Ariston, Linn, Thorens) whose suspension will change over time and those changes will alter the sonic character of the table.
Also important with Reference gear is that any change can be 'undone' if not satisfactory, which means that after an experiment is done and the table is brought back to its reference state, it will sound EXACTLY like it did before the experiment began.
The first decision need to be "Simple vs Complex". If your aim is a reference, then you want a basic design that is stable and predictable while being refined enough that it will show you the diferences between one arm and another; one cartridge and another.
Simple (plinth, motor, bearing, platter) tables like the Rega (ProJect, MH, etc) are very stable and predictable and, if well enough engineered, will fill the role as reference better IMO than complex tables with tuned sub-chassis (like Ariston, Linn, Thorens) whose suspension will change over time and those changes will alter the sonic character of the table.
Also important with Reference gear is that any change can be 'undone' if not satisfactory, which means that after an experiment is done and the table is brought back to its reference state, it will sound EXACTLY like it did before the experiment began.
If I had to go back to belt drive, the first turntable I'd look for is a Conrad Johnson Sonographe SG3 (not the one with the black top surface). The bearing/sub/platter assembly was second to none, can mount virtually any 9" or 10" arm, and don't require a platter mat. They usually go in the $300 range, and can smoke the Linn variants. Plus, you don't have to hire a contortionist/magician to set them up... the suspension tuning is done up top.
Can you tell I'm a fan? I would never have sold mine, if not to buy an SP 10.
Can you tell I'm a fan? I would never have sold mine, if not to buy an SP 10.
With your budget the only turntable I would consider is a Lenco idler drive. These have - when cleaned up and re greased - a remarkable performance. What IS ESSENTIAL is to make a truly high mass plinth. You can find a dedicated forum at:
<http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php>
There are others but this TT when properly used will wipe the floor with some very upmarket gear indeed!! Just make sure that you get one with a heavy platter. The above site will give all the information you will need.
Good luck!
<http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php>
There are others but this TT when properly used will wipe the floor with some very upmarket gear indeed!! Just make sure that you get one with a heavy platter. The above site will give all the information you will need.
Good luck!
Technics SP10?
That was one of the big DDs we had in the shop. Regularily got spanked by all sorts of less expensive belt-drives.
dave
I guess it depends on what pixpop means with "experiment with tonearms".If it is just to put them on a turntable(I don't think this is what he means)then no problem with a rega either.If however he wants a turntable to judge tonearms then you are right there are better "references" definitely.
It regularly does the spanking around here, but then it's sitting directly coupled to my basement floor and not being bounced around in a a "shop".
A reference is a reference is a reference....
references are just that, references.
If you want a reference that is a known quantity (which is the goal in determining what a reference piece is), then you have already made a choice. My understanding as you stated it, is to provide you with a "constant" or target to hit with your project.
The reference can be whatever known quantity there is, and as Jesse points out, simple vs. complex. I would suggest a table of a similar type and construction to the project table . That way there will be no "suspended" vs. "non-suspended" comparisons. And obviously a similar arm. if an RB300 arm is already for the project, it would be preferable to get a reference table with an RB arm from Rega. (regardless of the model, it is after all a reference).
One of the most satisfying tables I have is a Sugden Connoisseur re-plinthed on a hardwood chopping block (or maybe bamboo?). I extended the plinth with two 1" aluminium square tubing pieces. It shocked the h*ll out of me. Mount whatever arm (the best you can afford), and in my humble opinion, you'd be a long way to seeing off almost any table in the price range you suggest. Just remember to save some $$$s for a decent cart and cable...
references are just that, references.
If you want a reference that is a known quantity (which is the goal in determining what a reference piece is), then you have already made a choice. My understanding as you stated it, is to provide you with a "constant" or target to hit with your project.
The reference can be whatever known quantity there is, and as Jesse points out, simple vs. complex. I would suggest a table of a similar type and construction to the project table . That way there will be no "suspended" vs. "non-suspended" comparisons. And obviously a similar arm. if an RB300 arm is already for the project, it would be preferable to get a reference table with an RB arm from Rega. (regardless of the model, it is after all a reference).
One of the most satisfying tables I have is a Sugden Connoisseur re-plinthed on a hardwood chopping block (or maybe bamboo?). I extended the plinth with two 1" aluminium square tubing pieces. It shocked the h*ll out of me. Mount whatever arm (the best you can afford), and in my humble opinion, you'd be a long way to seeing off almost any table in the price range you suggest. Just remember to save some $$$s for a decent cart and cable...
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In the land of AR I would suggest one of the later AR tables. I use an AR The Turntable. There are plenty around, lots of after market and custom bits available and it shouldn't be hard to get together a collection of arm boards that will make changing out arms relatively easy.
Sound of the wood
Vinyl Nirvana
Another serious contender for me would be a Thorens TD125 mkII if you can find one. An example with sound electronics will trounce pretty much anything else belt drive mentioned in this thread. Arm boards are interchangeable and if the table is properly mounted the suspension can be taken out of the equation making the weight of any arm fitted irrelevant.
TD125
I'd recommend Rega arms on many different turntables...boring, perhaps, but a great platform for future mods
a recommendation... or two...
hey, tweak a Rega arm. If you already have one. Then get a stocker or use the tweaked arm as your arm standard. Then get the best table of a similar type as you intend on building. A few hundred dollars spend with a VTA adjuster, a techno-weight (or similar) and upgraded wiring will see off more expensive arms easily.
So that could leave up to USD$800 for an armless table. So many to choose from.
I still contend if a good platter and bearing (and a good motor) can be had for a reasonable price they would constitute a great table in a suitable plinth. Else get ye a Linn Axis or similar with an Akito II arm and cartridge, and know that it is a good table and will take some work to better it.
or AR, Oracle, Garrard (if you can afford one), Thorens, Ariston, Dunlop-Systemdek (now Audionote), Lenco heavy platter...
hey, tweak a Rega arm. If you already have one. Then get a stocker or use the tweaked arm as your arm standard. Then get the best table of a similar type as you intend on building. A few hundred dollars spend with a VTA adjuster, a techno-weight (or similar) and upgraded wiring will see off more expensive arms easily.
So that could leave up to USD$800 for an armless table. So many to choose from.
I still contend if a good platter and bearing (and a good motor) can be had for a reasonable price they would constitute a great table in a suitable plinth. Else get ye a Linn Axis or similar with an Akito II arm and cartridge, and know that it is a good table and will take some work to better it.
or AR, Oracle, Garrard (if you can afford one), Thorens, Ariston, Dunlop-Systemdek (now Audionote), Lenco heavy platter...
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