HPS 4.0 phono stage - Page 22

john curl · 15th November 2009, 04:28 PM

Higher order AM and FM distortion can be introduced, even as lower order AM distortion is significantly reduced.

Curly Woods · 15th November 2009, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by john curl

Higher order AM and FM distortion can be introduced, even as lower order AM distortion is significantly reduced.

So large amounts of negative feedback are to be avoided, correct? I was always told that open loop distortions should be minimized so that lesser amounts of negative feedback would be needed. Is that a true statement or a wives' tale?

john curl · 15th November 2009, 04:42 PM

Sounds like the right approach to me.

syn08 · 15th November 2009, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by john curl

Higher order AM and FM distortion can be introduced, even as lower order AM distortion is significantly reduced.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curly Woods

So large amounts of negative feedback are to be avoided, correct? I was always told that open loop distortions should be minimized so that lesser amounts of negative feedback would be needed. Is that a true statement or a wives' tale?

Quote:

Originally Posted by john curl

Sounds like the right approach to me.

This is 100% wrong, and it was proven thoretically and experimentally to Kingdom Come.

Stop polluting this thread with such crap. One thread (BT) should be enough to accomodate 40 years of chasing ghosts.

Curly Woods · 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by syn08

This is 100% wrong, and it was proven thoretically and experimentally to Kingdom Come.

Stop polluting this thread with such crap. One thread (BT) should be enough to accomodate 40 years of chasing ghosts.

Excuse me but I have always heard this as the truth due to increase in IMD with excessive NFB. Are you say that this does not happen? Where has it been proven? I thought that Matti Otala, among others documented this back in the 70's?

john curl · 15th November 2009, 06:57 PM

Now, what is a myth?

john curl · 15th November 2009, 07:12 PM

Just to be polite about it, were you not, Syn08, the person who was originally going to use an AD797 or its equivalent in output current, to drive a very low resistance feedback network, until we convinced you otherwise? You need a bit more, 'seasoning' still, before calling me 'names'.

Curly Woods · 15th November 2009, 07:37 PM

Bob Cordell does not seem to agree with Otala's agruments from what I have read, but he is one of the few. Does Bob also think that people can not hear TIM? I could not find any reference to this subject.

Joachim Gerhard · 15th November 2009, 09:22 PM

I think it is a good thing when distortion is low and i think circuits with extremely high amounts of feedback can be made to sound good. Again i claim Douglas Self that has researched if there is any low level problem but he did not find anything. In recent years people like Cyryl Bateman and Ed Simon have shown that low level distortion exits in passive parts but they are extremely low level down at least -130dB. if this is audible is open to debate and we should not trample on each other discussing minor things like that. by the way Syn08 i am very happy that you are not leaving us alone here. i think this thread got so popular because it is very controversial and we need you here as the solid rock you seem to be. So john please build two phonostages that measure EXACTLY the same and have the same topology but other parts and play them for me. when i hear a difference i send you some of our famous westfalia ham. i come to the states at the end of november and visit my fellow Allen Perkins so i am in the area.

orjan · 15th November 2009, 09:22 PM

The disagreement is not weather tim could be heard on not, rather what design rules to use to avoid it.

/örjan

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15th November 2009, 04:28 PM	#211
john curl diyAudio Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: berkeley ca	Higher order AM and FM distortion can be introduced, even as lower order AM distortion is significantly reduced.

15th November 2009, 04:42 PM	#213
john curl diyAudio Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: berkeley ca	Sounds like the right approach to me.

15th November 2009, 06:57 PM	#216
john curl diyAudio Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: berkeley ca	Now, what is a myth?

15th November 2009, 07:12 PM	#217
john curl diyAudio Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: berkeley ca	Just to be polite about it, were you not, Syn08, the person who was originally going to use an AD797 or its equivalent in output current, to drive a very low resistance feedback network, until we convinced you otherwise? You need a bit more, 'seasoning' still, before calling me 'names'.

15th November 2009, 07:37 PM	#218
Curly Woods Banned Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: McKinney, TX	Bob Cordell does not seem to agree with Otala's agruments from what I have read, but he is one of the few. Does Bob also think that people can not hear TIM? I could not find any reference to this subject.

15th November 2009, 09:22 PM	#219
Joachim Gerhard diyAudio Member Join Date: Mar 2009	I think it is a good thing when distortion is low and i think circuits with extremely high amounts of feedback can be made to sound good. Again i claim Douglas Self that has researched if there is any low level problem but he did not find anything. In recent years people like Cyryl Bateman and Ed Simon have shown that low level distortion exits in passive parts but they are extremely low level down at least -130dB. if this is audible is open to debate and we should not trample on each other discussing minor things like that. by the way Syn08 i am very happy that you are not leaving us alone here. i think this thread got so popular because it is very controversial and we need you here as the solid rock you seem to be. So john please build two phonostages that measure EXACTLY the same and have the same topology but other parts and play them for me. when i hear a difference i send you some of our famous westfalia ham. i come to the states at the end of november and visit my fellow Allen Perkins so i am in the area.

15th November 2009, 09:22 PM	#220
orjan diyAudio Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Stockholm	The disagreement is not weather tim could be heard on not, rather what design rules to use to avoid it. /örjan