Just read a few of previous post.. Seems like a place to state opinion and experiences..
Speaker and room set-up is crucial, this includes acoustic treatment… Maximum Three dimensionality and micro detail extraction can't be obtained from horns and waveguides.. Bottom line for me, is Speaker type, room and placement is of high importance for emotional involvement and emotional involvement is directly connected to a Flat Speaker and room FR, along with low speaker diffraction.. Host of other criteria is important as well but possibly to a lesser extent...
For Digital, I find Frank's statement, below, very interesting and would like to know more… I can play CD's sometimes and be blown away, it doesn't happen on a regular basis.. My Lp rig is very good, it always sounds great.. I can spin lp's on a Rega Planer 3 and not impressed, then switch to playing CD's and happy again..
I hope your right Frank, and that I find the answer one day..
I played several Zep Cd's, last couple of nights and was very pleased or at least was feeling the potential for CD playback..
---The fault lies in the quality of the reproduction chain, with digital - it's as simple as that. Analogue is sufficiently "sloppy", such that relatively "flawed" playback is still very easy on the ears - digital plays hard ball, it has be exactly right - otherwise often it just isn't pleasant to be in the presence of, no matter what the spec's say.
That's the downside of digital - the upside is that if you do get it exactly right, as it's meant to be, then it is staggeringly good ... the terminology used in these posts, about "grainy", lack of spatiality, "trueness", unnatural - these are the audible markers of less than optimum playback, exactly equivalent to hearing hiss on tape, or pops and crackles of a vinyl recording.---
Speaker and room set-up is crucial, this includes acoustic treatment… Maximum Three dimensionality and micro detail extraction can't be obtained from horns and waveguides.. Bottom line for me, is Speaker type, room and placement is of high importance for emotional involvement and emotional involvement is directly connected to a Flat Speaker and room FR, along with low speaker diffraction.. Host of other criteria is important as well but possibly to a lesser extent...
For Digital, I find Frank's statement, below, very interesting and would like to know more… I can play CD's sometimes and be blown away, it doesn't happen on a regular basis.. My Lp rig is very good, it always sounds great.. I can spin lp's on a Rega Planer 3 and not impressed, then switch to playing CD's and happy again..
I hope your right Frank, and that I find the answer one day..
I played several Zep Cd's, last couple of nights and was very pleased or at least was feeling the potential for CD playback..
---The fault lies in the quality of the reproduction chain, with digital - it's as simple as that. Analogue is sufficiently "sloppy", such that relatively "flawed" playback is still very easy on the ears - digital plays hard ball, it has be exactly right - otherwise often it just isn't pleasant to be in the presence of, no matter what the spec's say.
That's the downside of digital - the upside is that if you do get it exactly right, as it's meant to be, then it is staggeringly good ... the terminology used in these posts, about "grainy", lack of spatiality, "trueness", unnatural - these are the audible markers of less than optimum playback, exactly equivalent to hearing hiss on tape, or pops and crackles of a vinyl recording.---
Another way of saying it, is that the state of the system overall is the "weakest link" - the speaker usually cops the criticism, because it seems to be the obvious offender. Again, one ""has to be there" to experience what occurs - when the standard of playback is good enough then the speaker itself fully ceases to be something one can focus on - it "disappears", completely. So if it does vanish, where it's located is quite irrelevant - with a blindfold on you won't be able to point to where the drivers are, the source of the sound is completely 'hidden'.
Most placement games are to get to as close as possible to this state without "fixing" the system - far easier, I've found, is to do enough system tweaking so that worrying about such things is unnecessary ...
Joel, that's a good sign that you can hear the potential, with Led Zep - I can guarantee,
, that it's possible for those recordings to blow your socks off ... the first time it happened, for me, I was so amazed about how massive, completely "jaw-dropping" the sound created was.
One technique for tracking down where issues are is to put on a recording which is on the fine edge of being good, or bad, to listen to, depending ... . Then, vary things - say, deliberately increase or decrease the amount of mains noise by plugging in noise-making gear into the same circuit - does this have a dramatic effect, or is there zero difference? That approach can get you a long way if applied carefully ...
Most placement games are to get to as close as possible to this state without "fixing" the system - far easier, I've found, is to do enough system tweaking so that worrying about such things is unnecessary ...
Joel, that's a good sign that you can hear the potential, with Led Zep - I can guarantee,
, that it's possible for those recordings to blow your socks off ... the first time it happened, for me, I was so amazed about how massive, completely "jaw-dropping" the sound created was.One technique for tracking down where issues are is to put on a recording which is on the fine edge of being good, or bad, to listen to, depending ... . Then, vary things - say, deliberately increase or decrease the amount of mains noise by plugging in noise-making gear into the same circuit - does this have a dramatic effect, or is there zero difference? That approach can get you a long way if applied carefully ...
@ Fas42:
I am afraid that even I with dreadful hearing cannot agree with you. However you have already expounded your experience, views and resultant ideas at very considerable length in the Blowtorch thread and, no doubt, in others. I would seriously request you not to attempt to do likewise in this thread as any of us who are adequately interested can read them in that other thread. I would also add that this thread is practical in nature not merely a theoretical or a soapbox thread - which is what,IMHO, the Blowtorch thread now seems to have become.
In case you are not aware,Joachim Gerhard, whose thread this is, is one of the most respected speaker designers and is also exceptionally generous; he has given the DIY community a lot of achievable designs and has 'held hands' with builders throughout their building processes.
I am afraid that even I with dreadful hearing cannot agree with you. However you have already expounded your experience, views and resultant ideas at very considerable length in the Blowtorch thread and, no doubt, in others. I would seriously request you not to attempt to do likewise in this thread as any of us who are adequately interested can read them in that other thread. I would also add that this thread is practical in nature not merely a theoretical or a soapbox thread - which is what,IMHO, the Blowtorch thread now seems to have become.
In case you are not aware,Joachim Gerhard, whose thread this is, is one of the most respected speaker designers and is also exceptionally generous; he has given the DIY community a lot of achievable designs and has 'held hands' with builders throughout their building processes.
Frank, I'll put some work into it when I get a chance.. Was hoping for a simple solution, say some cheap Giant Killer CD player..
Phono wise, like to try The MC pre mentioned here in the future, but currently looking for a Top Notch MM phono pre.. Any Suggestions? Diagram and PCB somewhere to purchase? I'm interested in SY's Equal Opportunity but don't have energy to make the PCB.. so maybe something else on the Forum?
Phono wise, like to try The MC pre mentioned here in the future, but currently looking for a Top Notch MM phono pre.. Any Suggestions? Diagram and PCB somewhere to purchase? I'm interested in SY's Equal Opportunity but don't have energy to make the PCB.. so maybe something else on the Forum?
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You are right , but I have a dozen of pairs of perfectly matched K170/J74 , left overs of another projects.
There is no power supply voltage values in schematic.
All,
Please have a look at http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/part...r-resistors-small-capacitors.html#post4149279
Frans.
Please have a look at http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/part...r-resistors-small-capacitors.html#post4149279
Frans.
You guys might like to know that MOSFET simulation models might be able to achieve much better accuracy with some measurements and new model parameters:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/software-tools/266655-better-power-fet-models-ltspice.html
Remember when I asked you about those Lfet Vgs curves Joachim? This is why.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/software-tools/266655-better-power-fet-models-ltspice.html
Remember when I asked you about those Lfet Vgs curves Joachim? This is why.
One can not have enough phonostages, can one ?
I have over the period of the last 5 years not only build my own designs but also several of others. Self, JLH, Pass, you name it.
Sometimes i could improve on the originals and i also now pretty well know where i stand myself.
One design i have never tried is the Elektor Supra ( or is it Supa ).
Actually the original circuit diagram is drawn pretty awkward so today i have drawn it my way. I must say it is clever and simple. I would not recommend it for MC use though. The currents are just too small and the resistors in the noise chain too high.
Why they then paralled so much BJTs is a mystery to me. For MM use that would not be required. So i will try to modify the circuit for MC use by adjusting the values and using other transistors that are more suitable.
I have over the period of the last 5 years not only build my own designs but also several of others. Self, JLH, Pass, you name it.
Sometimes i could improve on the originals and i also now pretty well know where i stand myself.
One design i have never tried is the Elektor Supra ( or is it Supa ).
Actually the original circuit diagram is drawn pretty awkward so today i have drawn it my way. I must say it is clever and simple. I would not recommend it for MC use though. The currents are just too small and the resistors in the noise chain too high.
Why they then paralled so much BJTs is a mystery to me. For MM use that would not be required. So i will try to modify the circuit for MC use by adjusting the values and using other transistors that are more suitable.
Attachments
Only 0.85mA is run in the input stage. Each transistor group is seeing only halve of it.
That is too low for MC use. Also the 270 Ohm resistor too ground is in the noise chain.
Say we ramp the idle up to 10mA and use lower Rbb`transistors, fine.
We also want the feedback resistor low, say 10 Ohm. Then we have to ramp up the idle in the output stage too or we end up with distortion. A compromise has to be struck.
That is too low for MC use. Also the 270 Ohm resistor too ground is in the noise chain.
Say we ramp the idle up to 10mA and use lower Rbb`transistors, fine.
We also want the feedback resistor low, say 10 Ohm. Then we have to ramp up the idle in the output stage too or we end up with distortion. A compromise has to be struck.
The big resistors can be replaced with a single CCS, but we'll then need some degeneration in order to make the Pairs share current. It's really a dual LTP design. Spiced with some detail of the second stage. Could be a nice design when polished for today's demands
With CCS feed it can be servoed
With CCS feed it can be servoed
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