Who do we write to to get this changed?
How do we create a protest?
How much will the sound quality deteriorate at the reception end if we allow this to happen?
How long before the local FM radio stations will be forced to move to DAB?
How much will the commercialisation of the DAB bandwidth force the broadcasters to reduce the quality of the DAB service to even worse than it is now?
Andrew
Much as I agree with your sentiments I feel I must point out the following:
1. Commercial radio stations are not in business to furnish you with high quality music. They're in business to make money through advertising.
2. The Advertisers don't give a monkey whether their advert is in hi fidelity or not, t sells the same number of products.
3. Have you actually listened to FM radio recently? It's 99% garbage. Ultra compressed beatbox muzak. How much worse can it get??
Much as I agree with your sentiments I feel I must point out the following:
1. Commercial radio stations are not in business to furnish you with high quality music. They're in business to make money through advertising.
2. The Advertisers don't give a monkey whether their advert is in hi fidelity or not, t sells the same number of products.
3. Have you actually listened to FM radio recently? It's 99% garbage. Ultra compressed beatbox muzak. How much worse can it get??
Hm, given that they need to get a certain percentage of the audience onto digital before FM closes, I think it's going to take a lot longer than 2015. It's not like TV, where most homes have two or three sets at most. FM radios are all over - in the car, the caravan, on your mobile phone. DAB penetration so far is feeble, despite all the Beeb's advertising.
And a number of commercial players have moved away from DAB this year. That's going to be an entertaining U-turn.
I like FM (R3 anyway) but compared to internet radio it is limited (and some of the streams are good quality). I also happen to use and like DAB, but my two DAB sets are for bedroom and kitchen use. It's not hi-fi.
Where DAB manufacturers have got it right is in making their sets easy to use, with presets and in some cases built in recording facilities.
I suspect someone will come up with a gadget to stream digital radio and internet sound to existing FM receivers. (I now await with interest for someone to tell me it's already out there.)
And a number of commercial players have moved away from DAB this year. That's going to be an entertaining U-turn.
I like FM (R3 anyway) but compared to internet radio it is limited (and some of the streams are good quality). I also happen to use and like DAB, but my two DAB sets are for bedroom and kitchen use. It's not hi-fi.
Where DAB manufacturers have got it right is in making their sets easy to use, with presets and in some cases built in recording facilities.
I suspect someone will come up with a gadget to stream digital radio and internet sound to existing FM receivers. (I now await with interest for someone to tell me it's already out there.)
Gopher said:
if I am not actively playing/listening to music then I am usually listening to FM, probably averaging 5hrs a day.Colin said:
Dab is so easily compressed to fit more channels into the bandwidth that as it becomes compulsory the quality will drop further.
It's already not High Fidelity. How much worse can/will it get?
Looks like the Beeb are trying to avoid writing off their investment in DAB by forcing everyone to buy rubbish nobody wants. But, as pointed out, there are lots of radios out there and there has been a precedent for forcing retraction - remember the R4 long wave campaign? Time for a R3 on VHF campaign...
Read "Turning Off the Television" Jock Given, UNSW Press 2003
http://www.amazon.com/Turning-Off-Television-Broadcastings-Uncertain/dp/0868405000
It discusses in great detail the debates surrounding conversion of analogue broadcast formats to digital, specifically in Australia but the issues are universal.
Disclaimer: Jock is an old friend of mine. More importantly he is also a professor specialising in communications policy.
http://www.amazon.com/Turning-Off-Television-Broadcastings-Uncertain/dp/0868405000
It discusses in great detail the debates surrounding conversion of analogue broadcast formats to digital, specifically in Australia but the issues are universal.
Disclaimer: Jock is an old friend of mine. More importantly he is also a professor specialising in communications policy.
DAB was fine as a mass market medium, but WiFi radio has/is replacing it rapidly within those homes who already have a wifi hotspot.
The streams can be very good quality, and gone are the 'frequency' issues of dear old analog. However, it does not address the portability issues , or the 'proposed' broadband taxation here in the UK which will both keep uptake low.
Many homes now are able to recieve 'digital' radio - through thier set top boxes (or satellite recievers, or more modern TV's) - they just arent used in that way yet.
I have a dab radio, and at best, it is suitable for the kitchen. HiFi it isnt even on high qulity streams. I've even (out of interest) fed the digital out into my dac.
Appalling, would be the nicest thing I could say about it.
People are getting used to higher quality portable sound (Thanks Apple
) they will want thier 'radio' to do likewise...
just my 2 cents
Owen
The streams can be very good quality, and gone are the 'frequency' issues of dear old analog. However, it does not address the portability issues , or the 'proposed' broadband taxation here in the UK which will both keep uptake low.
Many homes now are able to recieve 'digital' radio - through thier set top boxes (or satellite recievers, or more modern TV's) - they just arent used in that way yet.
I have a dab radio, and at best, it is suitable for the kitchen. HiFi it isnt even on high qulity streams. I've even (out of interest) fed the digital out into my dac.
Appalling, would be the nicest thing I could say about it.
People are getting used to higher quality portable sound (Thanks Apple
) they will want thier 'radio' to do likewise...just my 2 cents
Owen
I've listened to Radio Barton via the interweb and thought the quality very good. I think it was 320kb or thereabouts. In fact it was streaming an opera from the New York Met the same evening as Radio 3 so I fed it through my receiver and couldn't tell the difference. I have yet to try the same experiment with my Naim tuner.
So yes, DAB is beginning to feel like an interim technology, in much the same way these low energy bulbs are a stopgap until LEDs take over.
btw, I've never understood the complaints about FM. Even here in the hills it's always been good. But the usual 3 priorities apply - aerial, aerial, aerial.
So yes, DAB is beginning to feel like an interim technology, in much the same way these low energy bulbs are a stopgap until LEDs take over.
btw, I've never understood the complaints about FM. Even here in the hills it's always been good. But the usual 3 priorities apply - aerial, aerial, aerial.
I think the crucial thing isn't the sound quality, which will be good enough for most people, but the fact that DAB isn't a World standard.
The DAB format has been pushed VERY hard by the BBC with a lot of leaning on the government, largely because they chose the wrong format a long time ago and must to continue to back it. Commercially it is a disaster, with many of the license holders pulling out.
So where does that leave people like the car industry? Fitting different radios for the UK against Europe, Japan, USA? Your radio no longer works when you go on holiday to France, who use a different frequency range, or Italy who'll be using DAB+?
Germany have announced switching it off.
French cars would pick up only non-public comms frequencies when they come to the UK (which won't be any more legal than listening in to vhf above 106 without a license is now)?
So I reckon that cars may ignore DAB completely and go for building in a 3g internet connection which will give the driver all the other advantages of mobile online services.
We have had VHF as world transmission standard for over fifty years, and not just for entertainment - comms, navigation beacons, emergency services, the lot. The whole world has agreed the standard and their frequencies and a consumer set, a ship or aircraft radio, or a Nav set will work anywhere.
DAB will stop at the Isle of Wight
The DAB format has been pushed VERY hard by the BBC with a lot of leaning on the government, largely because they chose the wrong format a long time ago and must to continue to back it. Commercially it is a disaster, with many of the license holders pulling out.
So where does that leave people like the car industry? Fitting different radios for the UK against Europe, Japan, USA? Your radio no longer works when you go on holiday to France, who use a different frequency range, or Italy who'll be using DAB+?
Germany have announced switching it off.
French cars would pick up only non-public comms frequencies when they come to the UK (which won't be any more legal than listening in to vhf above 106 without a license is now)?
So I reckon that cars may ignore DAB completely and go for building in a 3g internet connection which will give the driver all the other advantages of mobile online services.
We have had VHF as world transmission standard for over fifty years, and not just for entertainment - comms, navigation beacons, emergency services, the lot. The whole world has agreed the standard and their frequencies and a consumer set, a ship or aircraft radio, or a Nav set will work anywhere.
DAB will stop at the Isle of Wight
DAB Radio - certainly not Hi-Fi
I' m one of those people that regularly 'time-shift' radio progs and listen to them on the trips to & from work. Occasionally some of the recordings are worth keeping, so I transfer them to the computer. Initially I used cassette as the recording medium, but was forced to re-think when I changed my car. I started using minidisc, re-played at first through one of those mini-transmitters, and latterly using a car audio system with an 'mp3 input jack'. This was a big improvement over cassette, until I tried the DAB radio I received as a birthday present as a source. The unit had an optical output, so it was easy to hook up to the MD deck. Unfortunately the results were REALLY NASTY, with a sort of 'metallic' sound to voices, and a weird hazy effect to the treble, noticable even over the car system. I went back to FM very rapidly!
After a house move I found FM reception to be problematic, so I switched to a Freeview set-top box as a source. There are loads of cheap boxes available, and the one I picked has an electrical digital output, so connects easily to the MD recorder. I would say it is at least as good as FM was at my old house, but WAY better than DAB. The recordings are also easy to transfer to the PC when required, using my MZ-RH1, and sound good if replayed on my main system, either striaght from the MD, or from a home-made CD.
I have reached much the same conclusion as others here - DAB is OK for casual listening (kitchen/bathroom) on small portable radios, but does not cut it for more serious listening. And another (non-Hi-Fi) issue I have is that battery life, when compared to that from a simple FM portable, is absolutely awful! My Evoke-2 gets through a set of 2200mAH rechargables in about 14 days, compared to 3-6 months from the Grundig FM set used for about the same time each day. These things are really power hungry.
I' m one of those people that regularly 'time-shift' radio progs and listen to them on the trips to & from work. Occasionally some of the recordings are worth keeping, so I transfer them to the computer. Initially I used cassette as the recording medium, but was forced to re-think when I changed my car. I started using minidisc, re-played at first through one of those mini-transmitters, and latterly using a car audio system with an 'mp3 input jack'. This was a big improvement over cassette, until I tried the DAB radio I received as a birthday present as a source. The unit had an optical output, so it was easy to hook up to the MD deck. Unfortunately the results were REALLY NASTY, with a sort of 'metallic' sound to voices, and a weird hazy effect to the treble, noticable even over the car system. I went back to FM very rapidly!
After a house move I found FM reception to be problematic, so I switched to a Freeview set-top box as a source. There are loads of cheap boxes available, and the one I picked has an electrical digital output, so connects easily to the MD recorder. I would say it is at least as good as FM was at my old house, but WAY better than DAB. The recordings are also easy to transfer to the PC when required, using my MZ-RH1, and sound good if replayed on my main system, either striaght from the MD, or from a home-made CD.
I have reached much the same conclusion as others here - DAB is OK for casual listening (kitchen/bathroom) on small portable radios, but does not cut it for more serious listening. And another (non-Hi-Fi) issue I have is that battery life, when compared to that from a simple FM portable, is absolutely awful! My Evoke-2 gets through a set of 2200mAH rechargables in about 14 days, compared to 3-6 months from the Grundig FM set used for about the same time each day. These things are really power hungry.
It's worth pointing out that if you sign up for the BBC iPlayer Labs program, you can stream the listen again programmes at higher quality than the usual output. A little progam like Audio HiJack (on the Mac, there's bound to be something similar for the PC) and you can record and dump on mp3 CD for listening in the car.
I am going to be relying on the Freeview receiver for regular listening but sadly the digital channels are not yet fully available here, so can't test it out yet.
I am going to be relying on the Freeview receiver for regular listening but sadly the digital channels are not yet fully available here, so can't test it out yet.
After reading this, I did some searching and am amazed to find we have had DAB in Johannesburg since 2001. I have never seen a DAB receiver on sale anywhere, I have never seen one advertised in any magazine, newspaper, or on TV. No-one I know has ever mentioned the existence of such a service.
Hi Colin
Thanks for the info on the Labs version of the iPlayer, I shall investigate further. I do use the iPlayer now and then, but for 99% of my recordings I want to be able to eject the disc 1st thing next morning & play it immediately, without any further action. This is why I use MD, and IMO it is an under-rated format.
Coming back to the topic however, I just can't see how they can hope to switch analogue radio broadcasts off by 2015. There are just too many receivers out there, and the 'FM replacement' we've been offered is frankly not up to it. Happy to use my Evoke-2 as a bedside/bathside radio, but for the moment I'll stick with FM for proper Hi-Fi listening, even in my poor (RF-wise) location.
Thanks for the info on the Labs version of the iPlayer, I shall investigate further. I do use the iPlayer now and then, but for 99% of my recordings I want to be able to eject the disc 1st thing next morning & play it immediately, without any further action. This is why I use MD, and IMO it is an under-rated format.
Coming back to the topic however, I just can't see how they can hope to switch analogue radio broadcasts off by 2015. There are just too many receivers out there, and the 'FM replacement' we've been offered is frankly not up to it. Happy to use my Evoke-2 as a bedside/bathside radio, but for the moment I'll stick with FM for proper Hi-Fi listening, even in my poor (RF-wise) location.
I'm a true audio luddite (vinyl, antique amps, valve tuners) but I've been discovering Internet radio through the squeezebox/slimserver that feeds music to our dining room. I get a chuckle from the thought that I'm wirelessly streaming an Internet signal from the other side of the world through a 40-year-old amp and a fifty year old Tannoy silver. Sounds pretty good as a lot of the stations are on at least 128K.
Having a world-wide choice of stations of every possible genre to suit even the most niche of tastes is brilliant and is probably more how the future of broadcast sound is going to be than UK DAB is.
I think that by the time FM is turned off the world will have moved on and the already out-of-date MP2(!) DAB format will be simply passed over.
Having a world-wide choice of stations of every possible genre to suit even the most niche of tastes is brilliant and is probably more how the future of broadcast sound is going to be than UK DAB is.
I think that by the time FM is turned off the world will have moved on and the already out-of-date MP2(!) DAB format will be simply passed over.
This is quite an interesting (and diversifying) thread. There's a few things I wanted to pick up on, and I have some further comments too.
. Seriously though, there's always this
. Besides Govt. involvement, if their listeners aren't paying attention to FM any more, then they'll have to move to DAB or die.
Saying that though, just try finding an absolute figure of DAB listeners. I just did a quick search, and got a few percentages, but that's it. I've tried researching DAB take-up for an essay and it's tough work! You'd think they're want to shout about this stuff, no?
I realise my post probably seems confusing now. To be honest, I agree with most of your sentiments. DAB was old before it was even known about (MP2? Per-lease!), and the BBC realise that too. I just wanted to level the argument a little!
So the brighter side (perhaps) is the BBC/Ofcam seem to be thinking (very) long and hard about DAB+ and how to roll it out. There's an unfortunate degree of cat-and-mouse with the radio manufacturers too, but a compromise was reached on this - all new radios will be DAB+ capable or upgradeable by such a time (I think it was meant to be Dec '08!). But even DAB+ is getting a little old now too.
There's another format though, and the BBC are already broadcasting it. It's called DRM (Digital Radio Mondiale; literally 'Worldwide Digital Radio') and it uses (almost) cutting-edge compression to broadcast on AM frequencies, designed as a LW replacement. That BBC broadcast I mentioned might sound familiar (if you can pick it up!).
Personally, I think DRM is a great format which has potential far-beyond an LW replacement; so do the DRM lot. I hope to see Ofcom wake up to this, delay analogue switch off (realistically, it won't happen anyway), and develop DRM+ in the UK. It's unlikely though, as it doesn't multiplex, so it makes less economic sense.
Besides broadcast radio, internet radio's fantastic, it just lacks the convenience of a pocket tranny at the moment. I was listening to 6music online earlier today and was very impressed with the quality (I think it's 128kbps AAC). I also listen to 6music regularly on Freeview, which is good too, but really shows up the dynamic compression (it's much louder than the TV channels).
As it's a legislative issue... your local MP, or Ofcom directly. You could also try the BBC and your MEP might have something to say about it too (especially the point further down...).AndrewT said:
Normally standing somewhere important with placards
. Seriously though, there's always thisWhen it happens, the sound quality on DAB is unlikely to change overnight (doesn't mean it won't though!). Comparing FM and DAB, there are obvious quality differences, many inherent to DAB. However, some things to bear in mind:
- Hopefully
DAB+ will have taken over by the time analogue switch-off occurs (if indeed it does). - To get the most out of any format, you need a strong signal. Unfortunately DAB isn't great for this, but make sure you compare FM with full signal DAB - you might be surprised!
- FM is already digitally and dynamically compressed. Not to mention the digital signal chain going on at the studio end.
They won't be forced, but they might be coerced
. Besides Govt. involvement, if their listeners aren't paying attention to FM any more, then they'll have to move to DAB or die.This is after the analogue TV switch off (2012). If Ofcom have any sense, they'll allocate some of this freed spectrum for additional DAB muxes (as well as the freed FM/VHF spectrum). Thus more stations might even mean an increase in quality, as they'll be a threshold number of stations to create a new mux. [NB: I'm not sure on the frequency bands involved here. There's definitely DAB/FM over lap.]
To some degree, I agree. However, the BBC have got themselves into an unfortunate situation where there's now a few million (relatively) happy DAB listeners who have made an investment. Ofcom don't want to alienate these listeners by swapping to yet another new format, meaning they need new radios.EC8010 said:
Saying that though, just try finding an absolute figure of DAB listeners. I just did a quick search, and got a few percentages, but that's it. I've tried researching DAB take-up for an essay and it's tough work! You'd think they're want to shout about this stuff, no?
I get what you mean (it's not the de facto standard), but I wanted to point out that it is a standardised/ratified world standard, developed by the WorldDMB forum and regulated by the ITU.jeff spall said:
This is a really good point, which I hadn't thought much of before. This is where MEPs might be interested (AndrewT). Surely the EU wouldn't want to confuse international co-operation with split standards across Europe. Which makes me wonder - where does the EBU fit in with this? (A group the BBC is a major member of btw.)
At first, I thought this was a ridiculous suggestion. Then I realised that it's already happening, mainly to provide various multimedia functions besides radio. There are serious pitfalls with this though.
- Lack of locality. Once you're on the web, everything's world-wide. You can listen to a radio station from any country you like, which is great, but you lose local functions like RDS' TA. Then again, Sat Nav's include traffic monitoring now anyway.
- You have to pay to use a 3G connection, because it's two-way. Will people really want to subscribe for in-car entertainment? Oh wait, they already do.
I realise my post probably seems confusing now. To be honest, I agree with most of your sentiments. DAB was old before it was even known about (MP2? Per-lease!), and the BBC realise that too. I just wanted to level the argument a little!
So the brighter side (perhaps) is the BBC/Ofcam seem to be thinking (very) long and hard about DAB+ and how to roll it out. There's an unfortunate degree of cat-and-mouse with the radio manufacturers too, but a compromise was reached on this - all new radios will be DAB+ capable or upgradeable by such a time (I think it was meant to be Dec '08!). But even DAB+ is getting a little old now too.
There's another format though, and the BBC are already broadcasting it. It's called DRM (Digital Radio Mondiale; literally 'Worldwide Digital Radio') and it uses (almost) cutting-edge compression to broadcast on AM frequencies, designed as a LW replacement. That BBC broadcast I mentioned might sound familiar (if you can pick it up!).
Personally, I think DRM is a great format which has potential far-beyond an LW replacement; so do the DRM lot. I hope to see Ofcom wake up to this, delay analogue switch off (realistically, it won't happen anyway), and develop DRM+ in the UK. It's unlikely though, as it doesn't multiplex, so it makes less economic sense.
Besides broadcast radio, internet radio's fantastic, it just lacks the convenience of a pocket tranny at the moment. I was listening to 6music online earlier today and was very impressed with the quality (I think it's 128kbps AAC). I also listen to 6music regularly on Freeview, which is good too, but really shows up the dynamic compression (it's much louder than the TV channels).
AndrewT said:
This problem is not restricted to GB but all European (EEC) countries are concerned. The ending of all analog broadcasting is written on the wall and will come sooner or later (probably sooner) whatever actions you may take. I don't support DAB but the fact is that we're close to the end of an era in the history of broadcasting,and this is very sad. It was already decided (and passed) at the Geneva Conference that all analog terrestrial broadcasting in Europe will cease for 2012. I got the info from a official paper titled "Feuille de Route Pour un Plan de Transition Numérique" , page 1 , section II : (quote) "... La Commission de l'Union Européenne à fixé à 2012 l'exctinction de la radio télévision analogique en Europe. Cette date,recommandée, a aussi été adoptée par de nombreux états de l'Union..." (no translation needed) .It is very unlikely that this deadline could be actually met but nevertheless it is evident that some decisions have been made and the ending of analog broadcasting in Europe will come within years,not decades. Strangely enough,the question of massive pollution generated by the millions of discarded useless radio receivers has not been raised yet. Are all those MARANTZ 10B's and SCOTT 4310's bio-degradable ?
Re: Re: UK FM broadcasts to cease in 2015
My French isn't great, but I understood the gist of that bit of the paper. However, this conference isn't law, and most European nations don't even have DAB (as previously mentioned). TV switch off is generally going to plan though it seems.Tubologic said:
Brilliant point! Portable FM transmitters perhaps? Like the Pure Highway. In reality though, I doubt they'll ever turn off FM and AM.
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