Merry Christmas folks! 
While I agree the LP sounds - by and large - more 'natural' than CD in many cases, I do actually think that it's a conceit. I think CD is the more accurate music storage medium.
I think it's the manipulation of the signal which occurs before it can be pressed to vinyl which helps create that 'LP sound', plus the combined effects of the RIAA equalisation, the summing up of the bass information below a certain frequency to stop the needle jumping out of the groove, surface noise, arm and cartridge set up parameters, and so forth...
I'm still surprised no 'golden ears' magazine has tried the following to put this cd vs LP debate to bed:
In collaboration with a record label, get a CD copy an an album master.
Get a first-gen copy of the LP master, onto a CD.
Play the 'proper' CD.
Play the LP master CD through an RIAA stage and see which one comes up tops in the sound quality stakes.
Anyone know if the above is 1) possible and 2) would highlight the differences?
I think all the processes which go into being able to put music onto an LP result in a pleasing sound to most people. Whereas CD can sound too clean.
Funnily enough, when I create LP rips using 24/96 (and even 16/44.1) they often end up containing a great deal of the original LP 'warmth' and 'sound', which seems to suggest to me CD is perectly capable of transmitting the sound of the original source. providing the life hasn't been mastered out of it.....
Just my £2 worth
While I agree the LP sounds - by and large - more 'natural' than CD in many cases, I do actually think that it's a conceit. I think CD is the more accurate music storage medium.
I think it's the manipulation of the signal which occurs before it can be pressed to vinyl which helps create that 'LP sound', plus the combined effects of the RIAA equalisation, the summing up of the bass information below a certain frequency to stop the needle jumping out of the groove, surface noise, arm and cartridge set up parameters, and so forth...
I'm still surprised no 'golden ears' magazine has tried the following to put this cd vs LP debate to bed:
In collaboration with a record label, get a CD copy an an album master.
Get a first-gen copy of the LP master, onto a CD.
Play the 'proper' CD.
Play the LP master CD through an RIAA stage and see which one comes up tops in the sound quality stakes.
Anyone know if the above is 1) possible and 2) would highlight the differences?
I think all the processes which go into being able to put music onto an LP result in a pleasing sound to most people. Whereas CD can sound too clean.
Funnily enough, when I create LP rips using 24/96 (and even 16/44.1) they often end up containing a great deal of the original LP 'warmth' and 'sound', which seems to suggest to me CD is perectly capable of transmitting the sound of the original source. providing the life hasn't been mastered out of it.....
Just my £2 worth
Hi,
I'm going to be trying out my new Sony MZ-RH1 Minidisk recorder next week. It records to a 1GB HI-MD disk in Linear PCM (uncompressed).
I'll be recording a couple of vinyl LP's on to the Minidisk to test it out.
It can then be downloaded to a PC without restriction.
The sound quality on this device is amazing, vastly superior to MP3 (which it also plays back).
Why not consider this method?
David.
I'm going to be trying out my new Sony MZ-RH1 Minidisk recorder next week. It records to a 1GB HI-MD disk in Linear PCM (uncompressed).
I'll be recording a couple of vinyl LP's on to the Minidisk to test it out.
It can then be downloaded to a PC without restriction.
The sound quality on this device is amazing, vastly superior to MP3 (which it also plays back).
Why not consider this method?
David.
How about those Zoom H2 and H4 flash recorders? Those record to SDHC cards at various bit rates/depths (lossless). SDHC cards provide impressive storage at very reasonable prices; I bought an 8 gig card for $13 yesterday. That's starting to make all other recording media look as obsolete as Playtapes.
I frequently transfer Lp to CD. I use WaveLab followed by 3 products you'll find here
http://wwwmaths.anu.edu.au/~briand/sound/
I start at 192/24, do all processing then convert to 44/16.
I use headphones for monitoring - there is a clear diff between 192/24 and 44/16. Unfortunately my experience is in recording large symphonic orchestras and I could not comment on how this affects modern music.
http://wwwmaths.anu.edu.au/~briand/sound/
I start at 192/24, do all processing then convert to 44/16.
I use headphones for monitoring - there is a clear diff between 192/24 and 44/16. Unfortunately my experience is in recording large symphonic orchestras and I could not comment on how this affects modern music.
If your aim isCD only then you'd better start at an integer
multiple of 44.1 i.s.o. 192kHz.
Also have a look at
http://src.infinitewave.ca/
multiple of 44.1 i.s.o. 192kHz.
Also have a look at
http://src.infinitewave.ca/
no, I want the stored signal to be as good as possible. Then I can make the decision to lossless compress or lossy compress or convert down to 16/44.1 If any of these compressions degrade the sound I will not use them.
Once I have convinced myself that I can get quality better than CD from my digitised vinyl, then I continue with the whole collection.
If none of these are better than CD then I'll stop after just a few albums and accept that I use two sources; analogue and digital.
But the convenience of all digital is attractive.
Once I have convinced myself that I can get quality better than CD from my digitised vinyl, then I continue with the whole collection.
If none of these are better than CD then I'll stop after just a few albums and accept that I use two sources; analogue and digital.
But the convenience of all digital is attractive.
Andrew, you can get that but you need to compare apples with apples. You get really well mastered CDs - you won't better that. You'll easily better run of the mill CDs provided you're prepared to put up with some level of clicking - too much click removal will affect the sound. The biggest problem BY FAR is low freq noise, you'll easily solve the others. I found often that a good LP mastered from a 76 tape has a dynamic range which stresses a CD and a bit of compression helps. Do not worry much about RIAA
- it all depended on a ...spanner ( any old hands at cutting masters who might remember this one ? ) . I am forever amused by the phono preamps with 0.3dB RIAA accuracy...
You'll get great results once your ear learns to listen.
- it all depended on a ...spanner ( any old hands at cutting masters who might remember this one ? ) . I am forever amused by the phono preamps with 0.3dB RIAA accuracy...
You'll get great results once your ear learns to listen.
I wish I could...I am unfortunately bound by a non disclosure agreement and this is a PUBLIC forum. Try find a Neuman cutting head manual - I'll look for one and e-mail you the relevant pages.
There are adjustments to be done ( many...) to the cutting head and the head amp which rely entirely on the hearing and ability of the sound engineer who must make many compromises. These affect both RIAA and dynamics. Besides that, the sound engineer, hopefuly experienced or under the guidance of the conductor has ALREADY fiddled a lot with the frequency envelope and the dynamics. These make a mockery out of the riaa but usualy have as result a listenable recording. The ear- brain combo is not sensitive to frequency response or dynamic range to the extend audiophiles would like us to believe - it simply makes up what's missing. The more you're familiar with a piece of music ( rehearsals, recording sessions etc ) the worse it gets.
I found that the biggest problem in transferring LP to CD is the phono preamp. I've listened to hundreads of these and no solid state one ever came close to a simple valve one as TRANSPARENCY is concerned. I know close to nothing about electronics and I formed the ( probably mistaken ) opinion that this is due to saturation from HF components from the phono cartridge. I hope one of the experts on this board will point me in the right direction...
There are adjustments to be done ( many...) to the cutting head and the head amp which rely entirely on the hearing and ability of the sound engineer who must make many compromises. These affect both RIAA and dynamics. Besides that, the sound engineer, hopefuly experienced or under the guidance of the conductor has ALREADY fiddled a lot with the frequency envelope and the dynamics. These make a mockery out of the riaa but usualy have as result a listenable recording. The ear- brain combo is not sensitive to frequency response or dynamic range to the extend audiophiles would like us to believe - it simply makes up what's missing. The more you're familiar with a piece of music ( rehearsals, recording sessions etc ) the worse it gets.
I found that the biggest problem in transferring LP to CD is the phono preamp. I've listened to hundreads of these and no solid state one ever came close to a simple valve one as TRANSPARENCY is concerned. I know close to nothing about electronics and I formed the ( probably mistaken ) opinion that this is due to saturation from HF components from the phono cartridge. I hope one of the experts on this board will point me in the right direction...
could the shortcomings of SS phono pre be down to inadequate overhead margin?alexo said:
Phono pre running on +-24V generally seems better than +-15V in this respect.
I recall a SS pre using HV rails in a similar manner to the topology of valve. Never built it, but the designer made great claims.
"no, I want the stored signal to be as good as possible. Then I can make the decision to lossless compress or lossy compress or convert down to 16/44."
for conversion down to 44.1 176.4 likely beats 192 unless, perhaps, you use a true state of the art SRC like Izotope.
--
as an aside: most affordable ADCs are crappy when operated at 176.4 or 192, with higher noise, distortion, and aliasing, not to mention a pile of noise from the noise shaper appearing above the HF. pray read relevant datasheets,
for conversion down to 44.1 176.4 likely beats 192 unless, perhaps, you use a true state of the art SRC like Izotope.
--
as an aside: most affordable ADCs are crappy when operated at 176.4 or 192, with higher noise, distortion, and aliasing, not to mention a pile of noise from the noise shaper appearing above the HF. pray read relevant datasheets,
Hi Andrew,
I've got a realy good scope ( for a moron like myself...). If I connect it to the cartridge I see lots of noise into hundreads of Khz. It gets somwhat better with the 300pf cap but not by much.
I need build myself a ss phono preamp - maybe someone on this board is an expert in these and might be able to help me.
Professionally, we used to make LP to tape transfers from FM broadcasting using a specialized TT - I believe with a ceramic cartridge running at some ( I should not say this...), NINE grams.
The usual dual arrangement was used when possible together with lots of scissor cuts and patience....
I've got a realy good scope ( for a moron like myself...). If I connect it to the cartridge I see lots of noise into hundreads of Khz. It gets somwhat better with the 300pf cap but not by much.
I need build myself a ss phono preamp - maybe someone on this board is an expert in these and might be able to help me.
Professionally, we used to make LP to tape transfers from FM broadcasting using a specialized TT - I believe with a ceramic cartridge running at some ( I should not say this...), NINE grams.
The usual dual arrangement was used when possible together with lots of scissor cuts and patience....
In my never ending quest to improve vinyl to digital transfer my latest setup is as follows and the best to my ears and measuring capabilities till now.
I rewired my turntable to fully balanced and connected the output directly to the balanced input of the soundcard; no phono preamp anymore.
From there I record 48/32 bit float and do the equalizing digitally with Voxengo. (Thanks Werner)
After some more processing – clicks/pop/sometimes a bit of NR – I convert to 16 bit and flac the files.
With current cheap HDD space, MP3 has (to me) no use anymore in home audio.
A real good cartridge is the key to a very nice sounding result.
I rewired my turntable to fully balanced and connected the output directly to the balanced input of the soundcard; no phono preamp anymore.
From there I record 48/32 bit float and do the equalizing digitally with Voxengo. (Thanks Werner)
After some more processing – clicks/pop/sometimes a bit of NR – I convert to 16 bit and flac the files.
With current cheap HDD space, MP3 has (to me) no use anymore in home audio.
A real good cartridge is the key to a very nice sounding result.
Netlist,
Could you recomend a real good sound card ? I'm really disconnected from these things.
Somwhere in the 50s Philips organised the following demo :
A piano recital ( Badura Skoda...) was live recorded and a stereo LP was pressed overnight. Next day "who's who" in music ( and in Paris ) was invited to listen. Badura Skoda was on stage at the piano. Alterantely he was playing or the LP was played.
NOBODY in the audience was able to tell the diff.
Somenthing went very wrong since...
Could you recomend a real good sound card ? I'm really disconnected from these things.
Somwhere in the 50s Philips organised the following demo :
A piano recital ( Badura Skoda...) was live recorded and a stereo LP was pressed overnight. Next day "who's who" in music ( and in Paris ) was invited to listen. Badura Skoda was on stage at the piano. Alterantely he was playing or the LP was played.
NOBODY in the audience was able to tell the diff.
Somenthing went very wrong since...
I use the M-audio firewire 410. There might be better but definitely worse cards out there. I would consider such a discussion as quite off-topic and would recommend you to do a search for some excellent threads on the subject.
I have a similar experience with tricking an audience with Dire Straits' Sultans of Swing. Intro was CD, then the band continued to play the song. It looked like no one noticed the mix but high in the trees, we at the mixing console knew what happened.
Oops, again OT. Sorry Andrew.
I have a similar experience with tricking an audience with Dire Straits' Sultans of Swing. Intro was CD, then the band continued to play the song. It looked like no one noticed the mix but high in the trees, we at the mixing console knew what happened.
Oops, again OT. Sorry Andrew.
AndrewT said:
You should specify your platform when you ask software questions - Mac, PC or Linux. Audacity is free and works well. That's your best place to start.
I am currently using audacity to record at 24bit 96khz. Remember, you can only record as high as your sound cards supports. Also, I believe Audacity is limited to 96Khz even if your sound card goes higher.
I do not use any sort of pop remover or noise reduction filters, etc... I like the sound of my LPs and want to keep that sound intact, pops n all. It's not worth the risk of audio degradation or the time involved to try and remove something I hear when I play the real LP anyway.
I store files in Apple Lossless - so I save some disk space, but don't lose any of the bits or sound. For my best LPs I leave them at 24/96 - but that's near a gig per LP. For most, I down convert to 24bit / 48Khz using Quicktime Pro's best quality option. Then again, convert to Apple Lossless files.
As for sounding better than the CD, oh definitely yes, even at 24/48 the difference is clear. You can tell the difference on up to 96 too, but the simple fact is, even at 24/96 you can tell it's not the LP. So it goes...
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