DIY Schroeder Tonearm???

[Renron]

VS,
Mostly because Frank (can I call you Frank?)(he's always be Frank with us) prefers and says it matters to have a "barrel" shaped lower magnet. I was just trying to come up with perhaps a different vector to the swaying arm problem. No building as of yet, just trying to gather my thought and ideas.
Thanks for replying!

Ron

[SKR]

Hi,
I am a new member and read most of the thread because I am using Schroeder Model-2 for about past 3 years.
I also own SME-V and Rega-250 (not used for over 5 years.)
There is nothing like doing your own DIY projects specially with the help of so many on this forum and specially from greats like Frank Schroeder. Jeffrey did a great job in making his own arm which looks fantastic and must be sounding great too.
I would like to share my views about sound quality of an arm. No doubt the built quality of an arm is very important like material used,specs,weight, bearing or unipivot etc, etc.
Frankly speaking Schroder-2 is a very well built arm but I was never happy with the sound quality for past 3 years. It never reached anywhere near my SME-V and moreover I used to force myself to listening to Vinyl. The price is not cheap around $2,000. I ordered it with Silver wiring by paying extra amount but for some reason after a wait of few months I got the arm with normal wiring. (ofcourse I did not pay the extra amount for silver wiring).
My point here is not complaing about the arm or my purchase. But I very strongly feel that the sound quality of a good arm is very much decided by the quality of tonearmwiring and phono cable connected to tonearm wire. As I was frustrated with sound of model-2 I took out my Rega 250 a very cheap arm. So about 2 months back with the help of a friend we changed the wiring to Silver wiring and also changed the wiring from arm to the phono stage to silver wiring and good Furutech RCA plugs. When I installed this Rega-250 on my DIY turntable I was amazed to hear the improvement. Now it was as good as or better then many well branded arms.
Now I am seriously thinking of changing the wires of my Schroeder Model-2.
At the price of Model-2 we can get very good turntables like Project-9 complete with tonearm and catridge and excellant sound.
Therefore I will expect all DIY tonearm makers and all others with cheaper Rega arms to get the ENTIRE WIRING CHANGED AND SEE THE RESULTS for themselves.
Rather then spending heavily on top brands make your DIY arm or buy a cheap Rega 251 or 301 and get them rewired with good silver wiring costing about 200 to 300 dollars and enjoy the Vinyl like never before.
Thanks
SKR

[marekst]

SKR,
I never heard the real thing but I made two different Schroeder type tonearms and they both shamed OL Encounter which is much better than Rega300. Silver wire is not necessarily better, it sounds brighter, so it may sound better in systems that need more details, dynamics, excitement, edginess etc. You didn’t specify what you don’t like about Schroeder sound, I suspect your system is too dull for that tonearm. If you want to build a tonearm a bit more dynamic but not shrilling like Regas you could try tensioned string suspended unipivot.

Marek

[berlinta]

Hello Ron,
It's absolutely possible to use a neodymium ball, but ONLY for the bottom magnet! A half sphere for the top is an option, but not easy to obtain.
The biggest challenge(and I've built a few of these) is to align the N-S axis PERFECTLY vertical.
And the maximum damping obtainable is less than what can be achieved with disc- or close to disc shaped magnets.

Hello SKR,
Please let me know which type if wiring your arm came with and which cartridge(s), deck(s) you were using. I should be able to explain what is required to get the best out of that arm. Just contact me privately..
Recently I mounted a No.2 arm with a Lyra Skala on a DPS turntable which, until then, carried a Rega RB300(the Rega arm had been rewired by Willi Bauer with the same high purity, low loss insulation solid core copper that I use in the No. 2 arm plus silver Eichmann Bullet RCAs) .The difference was way past what the owner had expected, - in favor of the No.2 arm.
Not that I want to "advertise" or sonically compare my arms here, but a Rega or an SME V arm can be adjusted by anyone with a basic knowledge of all the crucial adjustment parameters, accepting that altering azymuth on said arms will require some trickery.
The No.2 arm(and my other arms) allow for some additional adjustments(azimuth, damping,screw torque), so it takes some experience(and willingness to experiment) to get the best out of my arms.
For all DIYers: check out the headshell design on a Reference or DPS arm. What you don't see is a brass sleeve, that's less long than the headshell section is thick, so the screw that holds the cartridge mounting plate can be tightened from "just so"(just slightly compressing the wood) to making full(very tight) contact with the brass over a range of nearly half a turn of that screw. This and the possibility to vary the torque on the counterweight grub screw have a tremendeous influence on the perceived bottom end tightness and "authority", the three-dimensionality of the images(focus is a matter of getting azimuth and -to a lesser degree,SRA- spot on) and the ability to resolve decay in time and space.
Silver wiring, if high quality, will yield advantages if soldered to silver connectors and doesn't have to sound "thinner" or "brighter". There's more to wiring than just the material of the conductor... :-)

Have a great weekend, guys!
or should that be "a great guys' weekend? :-)

Frank

[Renron]

Thanks for answering my questions, on the subject of orienting the +/- of a neodymium ball perfectly, wouldn't they (the poles) find their optimum and strongest placement if left to their own preferences? Not pressed in or epoxied in. Think of an ink ball point pen where the ball rotates freely because the end of the tube is not large enough to let the ball exit the tube.
Just thinkin' outloud. Thanks for everyone's input.

Ron

[berlinta]

Hi Ron,
If you allow the ball to "find" the perfect vertical orientation of the poles without fixing it afterwards, any movement of the upper magnet/arm assembly will force that magnet to "follow" it. Yes, the attracting force will generate quite a bit of friction between the lower ball and its housing. Nevertheless(without fixing it permanently), there'll always be a change to "knock it out of alignment" with each subsequent position being different from said vertical orientation. As a result VTF and azimuth will not be constant over the record radius.
If, on the other hand, you keep the magnets in touch with each other, you open the next can of worms. Just imaging a slighliy excentric and warped record. You'll have a bearing with rolling AND sliding friction plus a poorly defined bearing point.

The self aligning lower magnet design will work much better if you suspend the lower (ball)magnet in a low friction cardanic bearing. Pretty complex, but it looks cool as hell :-)

Cheers,

Frank

[SKR]

Originally Posted by marekst

SKR,
I never heard the real thing but I made two different Schroeder type tonearms and they both shamed OL Encounter which is much better than Rega300. Silver wire is not necessarily better, it sounds brighter, so it may sound better in systems that need more details, dynamics, excitement, edginess etc. You didn’t specify what you don’t like about Schroeder sound, I suspect your system is too dull for that tonearm. If you want to build a tonearm a bit more dynamic but not shrilling like Regas you could try tensioned string suspended unipivot.

Marek

Hi Marek,
Thanks for your comments. I have also heard very good comments about Schroeder arms mainly their top two models. Also I agree that silver need not be best choice always and many prefer pure copper.
I tried this arm on various systems namely Jadis Tube Amps, Red wine audio and now McIntosh 402 power amps. The phono stages used are Graham Slee Era Gold and Elevator express and now McIntosh built in phonostage in their Pre-amp. 2300.
My tables are Smaller model of Clear Audio and DIY supply sandwich plinth model both with seperate motors. My cables are Cardas Golden reference (all copper ) so I can differentiate between Bright and normal good sound. The catridges used are Lyra Helicon,Sumiko Black Bird and Sound Smith SMMC-1.
I found the sound of model-2 lacking in details,clarity, dynamics Like there were a few opaque layers between me and the music. The RCA plugs used in model-2 were of very poor quality. You can still see a picture of the cable and plugs which were supplied to me on the website of Singapore dealer at
Schroder Model 2 Tonearm Photos - Soundscape HiFi And Music

I am extremely sorry as I may be the first or only person to write such comments about a Schroeder Arm. But I wrote what I heard. And when I heard the Rewired Rega-RB250 I was just shocked. It may not be yet fully burnt-in but still sounding extremely detailded,dynamic with very good image stability and huge soundstage.

My main stress in previous post is that the sound character of an arm depends a lot on the wires and RCA plugs used. We are talking about smaller or minute differences due to number of twist in wires, type of sholder used,material to reduce resonance and vibration etc. etc. But I feel the biggest impact will be because of wiring provided arm is technically well made to right weight and dimentiond and good bearing or unipivot. That is the reason as the price of arm goes up the wiring cost and type of wiring also changes.
You will notice in my case I did not use an expensive table but used very expensive Tone arm like SME-V and very expensive catridge like Lyra Helicon and got very good results. Which proves a decent table with seperate motor and bearing assembly and speed stability is good enough to get good sound. Modern day tables are increasing in height,weight and designs which is just creating a hype and price war among various manufacturers.

[SKR]

Hi Jeffrey,
I have seen pictures of your newly made arm and feel really impressed will all the efforts put into it. It looks very much like a Schroeder breed.
I would like to know how do you find sound of your arm in which you have used Vendenhul 150 tonearm wires about 33awg. These are basically silver wires in four different colors. Also if you can tell us which cable you are using from tonearm to phonostage and which RCA plugs you are using.
In short are you extremely happy with the sound, like is it the best sound you heard in your home or is there anything missing which need to be worked upon.
will appreciate your comments
SKR

[Jeffrey Davison]

I am more than very pleased with the arm. It's hard for me to directly compare as each arm in my 3 turnatables are different as well as the turntables being different.
Table 1 is a Versa Dynamics 1.1 with it's linear tracking arm. Table 2 is an extremely modified Thorens TD160 with a carbon Fiber sub-chassis and bearing of my own design with a 9" SME 3009 Series II improved, also modded with brass bearings, external damping and VanDenHul MCS wiring and female WBT NexGen RCA's . And my Schroeder inspired arm is 10.5" long, with VanDenHul MCS wiring and WBT NexGen RCA's females in a termination box on a self built plinth with a Garrard 401. All diferent animals to compare against. Each has their particular strengths and I really don't notice obvious weaknesses, but of course, the DIY Scroeder and 401 is my favorite overall.

My cartridges are Low Output devices. On the Thorens/SME a Denon DL103R and on the Versa and Garrard I use a Benz Ruby 3.

I have 3 different phono stages. One is a Vendetta SCP2b that I have owned since the 1980's..a classic John Curl design. One is a tube based WE420a/ECC35 passive riaa with Step-Ups in front and the third one is my most current self built phono stage. Tube based with an LCR RIAA eq. Its a 6C45pi first stage, the LCR, then stage 2 is a CCa SRPP, and stage 3 is a CCa SRPP. It is absolutely quiet and has 70db of gain. It is the best phonostage I've ever had the pleasure to listen to, not as absolutely quiet as the Vendetta, but is more organic, open, deep, wide, tall, musical.

The cables I use are self made. I use a quad braid of Dueland .5 silk/oil silver terminated with Eichman "Silver" Bullets RCA's

JD

Originally Posted by SKR

Hi Jeffrey,
I have seen pictures of your newly made arm and feel really impressed will all the efforts put into it. It looks very much like a Schroeder breed.
I would like to know how do you find sound of your arm in which you have used Vendenhul 150 tonearm wires about 33awg. These are basically silver wires in four different colors. Also if you can tell us which cable you are using from tonearm to phonostage and which RCA plugs you are using.
In short are you extremely happy with the sound, like is it the best sound you heard in your home or is there anything missing which need to be worked upon.
will appreciate your comments
SKR

[DENNYDOG]

Beautiful work guys. Especially Mr. Jeffrey Davison and thanks has to go to Frank for helping everyone out in the design and build process. I ran across this link from the Galibier Design site.

Denny