I am trying to help a friend decide which offering to go for regarding the modification of a Rega RB300 tonearm counterweight.
Options we are aware of are:
Michel TechnoWeight
Origin Live Structural Upgrade
Audio Origami Counterweight
Expressimo Heavy Weight
Audio Mods Counterweight
I'm looking for opinions from anyone who may have had the opportunity to compare these options, as well as recommendations.
The budget is tight, so he is looking for the most cost-effective option.
Thanks!
Options we are aware of are:
Michel TechnoWeight
Origin Live Structural Upgrade
Audio Origami Counterweight
Expressimo Heavy Weight
Audio Mods Counterweight
I'm looking for opinions from anyone who may have had the opportunity to compare these options, as well as recommendations.
The budget is tight, so he is looking for the most cost-effective option.
Thanks!
planet10 said:
analog_sa said:
I believe that DIY is certainly in the realm of possibility, including rewiring. I can't make the mechanical parts myself, but I can find someone who can.
So, some questions need to be answered:
(1) What is rewiring meant to achieve (apart from the cheap phono plugs and earthing via the signal ground)?
(2) What is the principle of operation of the counterweight mod? Is it simply about tighter coupling to the stub? Can I, for instance, just add a grub screw to the counterweight? ...claims of lower centre of gravity improving matters?
"Buying a better arm" does not fall within the scope/budget of this effort.
Hopefully Tubenut reads this as he would be much better prepared to recommend rewiring options. What i like about the rewiring is that the materials cost very little and the entire exercise is easy and fully reversible. At the time i listened to two sets of wires cellotaped to the Rega tube which made it easier to compare to the original wiring. Ended up with a single 1m length of screened Cardas awg33 with the screen removed inside the arm. Also used Cardas cart clips which made a surprisingly big difference.
When Origin Live started the entire business of counterweights for the Rega they specifically warned against keeping the original stub and adding a grub screw. Maybe it was just marketing. A lower centre of gravity seems beneficial.
When Origin Live started the entire business of counterweights for the Rega they specifically warned against keeping the original stub and adding a grub screw. Maybe it was just marketing. A lower centre of gravity seems beneficial.
p10...
well yes and no...
the brass "slugs" lower the CofG substantially. So there are two benefits to that particular counter-weight: decoupling and lower CofG.
by lowering the CofG of the counter-weight, the likelihood of setting the cartridge end in motion due to a large vertical movement (such as a warp on a record) is greatly reduced, as it will require a larger force to overcome the Inertia of the counterweight.
If the CofG of the counterweight is higher than the plane of the record, a smaller force acting on the cartridge (and thus "pushing up against it), can create a larger change in the force acting on the counterweight, thus upsetting it.
draw ye some vector diagrams (remember those , my friends?), and you can easily convince yourself.
stew
well yes and no...
the brass "slugs" lower the CofG substantially. So there are two benefits to that particular counter-weight: decoupling and lower CofG.
by lowering the CofG of the counter-weight, the likelihood of setting the cartridge end in motion due to a large vertical movement (such as a warp on a record) is greatly reduced, as it will require a larger force to overcome the Inertia of the counterweight.
If the CofG of the counterweight is higher than the plane of the record, a smaller force acting on the cartridge (and thus "pushing up against it), can create a larger change in the force acting on the counterweight, thus upsetting it.
draw ye some vector diagrams (remember those , my friends?), and you can easily convince yourself.
stew
For what its worth, i've changed to the Michell Technoweight and i noticed an immediate increase in the weight of the bass and a little less coloration in the mid areas.The change is not subtle, so you will be in no doubt as to its effect on your system.How it will sound with your combination of components is anyones guess.I suppose we all take a chance when we modify our gear.
Like all of us I would hate to think i spent $200 on a mod that didnt improve my system, but i am not one to try and fool myself just because i did spend the money,however i can say that in my system, i like the changes the Technoweight made to the music i listen to.
Ive also just purchased a Pete Riggle VTAF but havn't had a chance to listen to it yet as i am in the process of doing some more major modifications to my turntable.
The last mod i will be doing is the Incognito rewire in a few weeks time after i've had a chance to listen to the effect of all the other mods.
Like all of us I would hate to think i spent $200 on a mod that didnt improve my system, but i am not one to try and fool myself just because i did spend the money,however i can say that in my system, i like the changes the Technoweight made to the music i listen to.
Ive also just purchased a Pete Riggle VTAF but havn't had a chance to listen to it yet as i am in the process of doing some more major modifications to my turntable.
The last mod i will be doing is the Incognito rewire in a few weeks time after i've had a chance to listen to the effect of all the other mods.
shaun
If it is the RB300 that is being modded I think the best mod is to remove any influence of the weight setting spring. ( This does not apply to the RB250 which does not have the weight setting spring fitted.) I find that the playing weight is best set by moving the counter weight along the arm.
The next best mod I think is to substantially increase the weight of the counterweight so that the tracking force can be set with the counterweight closer to the pivot. I added a lead ring around my counterweight.
I also dispensed with the set screw idea and tightened the counterweight by added a few wraps of plumbers PTFE tape in the threads.
(I have never tried changing the stub so I do not know what difference that makes.)
These mods made a big difference and made the mid and top cleaner when I upgraded my RB300 and RB250.
I think better wire also helps and I use silver wire.
At the end of the day the final result you will get is really set by the quality of the bearing in your particular arm. Thr Regas seem to be to a very high quality for the price. You have to pay much more to gat a much better bearing. But, you do get some variation in the Rega bearings and that is probably what will limit your particular arm.
Don
If it is the RB300 that is being modded I think the best mod is to remove any influence of the weight setting spring. ( This does not apply to the RB250 which does not have the weight setting spring fitted.) I find that the playing weight is best set by moving the counter weight along the arm.
The next best mod I think is to substantially increase the weight of the counterweight so that the tracking force can be set with the counterweight closer to the pivot. I added a lead ring around my counterweight.
I also dispensed with the set screw idea and tightened the counterweight by added a few wraps of plumbers PTFE tape in the threads.
(I have never tried changing the stub so I do not know what difference that makes.)
These mods made a big difference and made the mid and top cleaner when I upgraded my RB300 and RB250.
I think better wire also helps and I use silver wire.
At the end of the day the final result you will get is really set by the quality of the bearing in your particular arm. Thr Regas seem to be to a very high quality for the price. You have to pay much more to gat a much better bearing. But, you do get some variation in the Rega bearings and that is probably what will limit your particular arm.
Don
wasting money...
well a Michelle "Special" arm can be purchased in Canada...an OEM RB250 with a finger nut and VTA adjuster and the Techno-weight already put on by Rega! (for JA Michele). My audio partner purchased one, we did a rewire with Teflon coated silver-plated tonearm wire.... the thing kicks!
I don't think any would find this a purchase that didn't prove to be worthwhile (the Techno-weight).
atavid : before spending the big bucks, try some simple, inexpensive wire as described above...it'll surprise you for only CAD $15-$20 (AUD $18-25).
stew
well a Michelle "Special" arm can be purchased in Canada...an OEM RB250 with a finger nut and VTA adjuster and the Techno-weight already put on by Rega! (for JA Michele). My audio partner purchased one, we did a rewire with Teflon coated silver-plated tonearm wire.... the thing kicks!
I don't think any would find this a purchase that didn't prove to be worthwhile (the Techno-weight).
atavid : before spending the big bucks, try some simple, inexpensive wire as described above...it'll surprise you for only CAD $15-$20 (AUD $18-25).
stew
Okay, here I am
Been a bit busy not checking all the topics but Shaun gave me a PM nudge...
Rewiring DIY is probably the most cost effective except for my counterweight tricks/care at the bottom of the post. There are various wiring options one can do. Yes, the separate earth, better plugs and connectors make a valid difference. IMO the conductor and insulation quality and geometry makes a big difference too but I know Shaun is a wire heathen.
There are various options from Cardas. The best value for the cash is the method AnalogSA used with the screened tonearm wire stripped for the arm tube section running a continuous tags to RCA wire with no joints. The RCA side is fragile though¡K
This is similar to incognito but Incognito separates the L+R wires and the shield they run over them is spaced to reduce capacitance (?)
Another is to fit a Cardas DIN to the base of the rega allowing different external wires or an old interconnect to be used for eg.
However, just the internal loom replaced with Cardas wire and tags wired to the silly rega ¡§base plug¡¨ and external wire is still an improvement!
With regard to counterweights my experience is kind of as follows:
On a RB250 with plastic stub/steel weight going to even the Rega RB300 stainless steel stub + stainless steel weight make a massive difference, going from stainless steel weight to the Rega Tungsten weight is worthwhile but the Tungsten weight is quite dear and weight + stub approaches some of the aftermarket products in price.
Going from the Tungsten weight/s-steel stub to the Technoweight or OL weight for example is still an upgrade but the difference is a bit less then if coming fdrom a plastic stub. Many RB300 that are older originally came with the tungsten weight that is now sold as an upgrade on the steel weight now sold standard.
If the RB300 has a steel weight, the difference between the aftermarket weights seems is bigger the from a tungsten one.
(This is provided a little care is taken in fitting the original stub IMO, I will address this later on)
A good value counterweight upgrade is the new Pete Riggle CCM (Counterweight for the common man). It is a virtual OL clone of steel torqued stub but with a brass counterweight with grub screw at substantially less cash then the OL. (I import these in to SA now (am I allowed to say that?).
I am not too sure of under slung counterweights as I have read some arguments for and against and both seemed with merit. I think the Technoweight addresses the stability issue without moving the centre of gravity in a nice way.
Sonically/Subjectively I would say the OL/CCM is a sound of more guts and dynamic drive where the Technoweight is a bit more subtle and perhaps has slightly more even bass response.
The technoweight ¡§techno¡¨ is in the shape of the wide thin weight and the calibrated adjustment as well as the two weight sizes allowing the weight closest to the pivot with different cartridges.
In terms of coupling to the arm it is no different from the Rega! In my opinion the tight coupling of the stub is where a lot can be gained!
To get the most out of a Rega steel stub you need to take a little care.
I highly recommend removing the original stub and with fine grit sand paper sanding down the uneven paint end of the arm tube so that the collar of the stub will fit snuggly without gaps. Adding a little plumbing tape to the thread to my ears helped too.
While doing all this take the arm of the deck!
Once sanded etc put the stub in a wooden vice/workmate/vice between tow pieces of timber. This will allow good grip on the stub without scratching it like some do with pliers ƒ¼. Now grab the arm tube (NOT the bias housing)with your hands and some rubber sheet / non slip boot mat and tighten up good. The tube can take quite a lot of torque and this is a way of doing so without stressing the bearings. (This in reverse works perfectly for removing stubborn stubs too!)
Hope this helps¡K
Been a bit busy not checking all the topics but Shaun gave me a PM nudge...
Rewiring DIY is probably the most cost effective except for my counterweight tricks/care at the bottom of the post. There are various wiring options one can do. Yes, the separate earth, better plugs and connectors make a valid difference. IMO the conductor and insulation quality and geometry makes a big difference too but I know Shaun is a wire heathen.
There are various options from Cardas. The best value for the cash is the method AnalogSA used with the screened tonearm wire stripped for the arm tube section running a continuous tags to RCA wire with no joints. The RCA side is fragile though¡K
This is similar to incognito but Incognito separates the L+R wires and the shield they run over them is spaced to reduce capacitance (?)
Another is to fit a Cardas DIN to the base of the rega allowing different external wires or an old interconnect to be used for eg.
However, just the internal loom replaced with Cardas wire and tags wired to the silly rega ¡§base plug¡¨ and external wire is still an improvement!
With regard to counterweights my experience is kind of as follows:
On a RB250 with plastic stub/steel weight going to even the Rega RB300 stainless steel stub + stainless steel weight make a massive difference, going from stainless steel weight to the Rega Tungsten weight is worthwhile but the Tungsten weight is quite dear and weight + stub approaches some of the aftermarket products in price.
Going from the Tungsten weight/s-steel stub to the Technoweight or OL weight for example is still an upgrade but the difference is a bit less then if coming fdrom a plastic stub. Many RB300 that are older originally came with the tungsten weight that is now sold as an upgrade on the steel weight now sold standard.
If the RB300 has a steel weight, the difference between the aftermarket weights seems is bigger the from a tungsten one.
(This is provided a little care is taken in fitting the original stub IMO, I will address this later on)
A good value counterweight upgrade is the new Pete Riggle CCM (Counterweight for the common man). It is a virtual OL clone of steel torqued stub but with a brass counterweight with grub screw at substantially less cash then the OL. (I import these in to SA now (am I allowed to say that?).
I am not too sure of under slung counterweights as I have read some arguments for and against and both seemed with merit. I think the Technoweight addresses the stability issue without moving the centre of gravity in a nice way.
Sonically/Subjectively I would say the OL/CCM is a sound of more guts and dynamic drive where the Technoweight is a bit more subtle and perhaps has slightly more even bass response.
The technoweight ¡§techno¡¨ is in the shape of the wide thin weight and the calibrated adjustment as well as the two weight sizes allowing the weight closest to the pivot with different cartridges.
In terms of coupling to the arm it is no different from the Rega! In my opinion the tight coupling of the stub is where a lot can be gained!
To get the most out of a Rega steel stub you need to take a little care.
I highly recommend removing the original stub and with fine grit sand paper sanding down the uneven paint end of the arm tube so that the collar of the stub will fit snuggly without gaps. Adding a little plumbing tape to the thread to my ears helped too.
While doing all this take the arm of the deck!
Once sanded etc put the stub in a wooden vice/workmate/vice between tow pieces of timber. This will allow good grip on the stub without scratching it like some do with pliers ƒ¼. Now grab the arm tube (NOT the bias housing)with your hands and some rubber sheet / non slip boot mat and tighten up good. The tube can take quite a lot of torque and this is a way of doing so without stressing the bearings. (This in reverse works perfectly for removing stubborn stubs too!)
Hope this helps¡K
I'm with others about making your own if you have the means.
I made one with brass, the hole was offset so that it is underslung. Sounds better than the one that came with Riggle.
On the post re: removing the spring for weight adjustment.
NO. you can disengage the spring but turning the dial all the way to the heaviest setting.
Some say that you "hear" the ringing, I disagree. When tuning your cartridge and sound, I use both dynamic and static weight to "get it right" . This is one of the benefits of the RB300, you have full control of a mixture of dynamic and static damping.
However, doing this means you need to get a scale to adjust your VTF.
I made one with brass, the hole was offset so that it is underslung. Sounds better than the one that came with Riggle.
On the post re: removing the spring for weight adjustment.
NO. you can disengage the spring but turning the dial all the way to the heaviest setting.
Some say that you "hear" the ringing, I disagree. When tuning your cartridge and sound, I use both dynamic and static weight to "get it right" . This is one of the benefits of the RB300, you have full control of a mixture of dynamic and static damping.
However, doing this means you need to get a scale to adjust your VTF.
John R, the guy that does the Sole subchassis for the Linn Sondek does a little known counterweight for the RB300. Looks very SME as it follows the offset of the bearings. I've heard this counterweight in action and it works. Bass gets better as it goes lower and the treble seems to smooth out a touch. You'll find him here Analogue Innovation
or on Pinkfishmedia.
or on Pinkfishmedia.
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