-10dBV (~300mV) is the consumer audio standard.* UFSP is calculated to reach that (or bit above usually) with all cartridge types of 0.25mV-5mV output at 5cm/sec nominal record cut velocity. When set working on their suitable gain modes.
All home systems with a phono source should have been allowed enough rest of chain voltage gain to can hit peak power with that. Records can overshoot "zero" 5cm/sec at peaks like tapes can hit above their zero calibration level. 45 RPM wide groove cuts have +6dB peaks more often than others.
"Abusing" gain in open loop phonos like this one or in alike no loop feedback tube types certainly brings noticeably higher THD (mainly 2nd h) and loudness excitement up to a gain point where they shout. A moderate dose can be fun but don't overdo it. Such an approach imparts a "boldness" effect but lessens transparency and overload margin for clicks and pops accordingly. No free lunch.
* Line level - Wikipedia
Salas I'm looking at getting a DL-103R, the AT-ART9 looks to be out of stock at all places in the US. I'm also getting my Soundsmith Otello re-tipped so I'm not sure how crazy I should go on another new cartridge - the VM540ML seems really well balanced. The UFSP is a game changer, I wouldn't have been seeking new cartridges previously.
The DL-103R is very delightful as it has plenty of well defined bass and midbass, a wide soundstage with extra projection of voices and main instruments. Not a neutral cart, a tone cart. Hi-Fi's golden era sound with conical stylus, aluminum cantilever, low compliance, lossy housing. Manages to be warm full and bright at the same time. Like an Altec of carts so to speak. Has a big following and you will not regret having it in your collection.
If you prefer neutral sound (but not bright) with certainly more detail and depth and a great inner groove tracking stylus profile on a thin boron rod go to the AT33PTG/II. Its a solid upgrade from the 103R no doubt. Its pick up system is generations ahead but its price not too far ahead. Unless you must have that special Denon tone.
Many would typically use 100 Ohm but I recommend 200-220 Ohm loading for both. They sound more expressive to me there. No big deal to compare loads as we got plenty of switches.
If you prefer neutral sound (but not bright) with certainly more detail and depth and a great inner groove tracking stylus profile on a thin boron rod go to the AT33PTG/II. Its a solid upgrade from the 103R no doubt. Its pick up system is generations ahead but its price not too far ahead. Unless you must have that special Denon tone.
Many would typically use 100 Ohm but I recommend 200-220 Ohm loading for both. They sound more expressive to me there. No big deal to compare loads as we got plenty of switches.
Oh man. It's a whole new world here—records everywhere... Ordered that AT33PTG/II to try against the DL-103 and previous FSP w/ SUTs and Ultra when it's ready. WOW. Will report back. (Also have a line on a second hand Hana ML)
For your loading recommendation would that be: S5, S6, S9 ON (others OFF) for LoMC plus S2 ON for 220R (try S1 ON—S2 OFF to hear what's what). Just confirming as a noob.
Would playing with the loading in my FSP SUT config do anything? I'm thinking the answer is a firm no since it's gone a bit rogue there and is based on 47K, and I should try the 1:20 windings for Denon... but never hurts to ask.
Thanks Salas.
For your loading recommendation would that be: S5, S6, S9 ON (others OFF) for LoMC plus S2 ON for 220R (try S1 ON—S2 OFF to hear what's what). Just confirming as a noob.
Would playing with the loading in my FSP SUT config do anything? I'm thinking the answer is a firm no since it's gone a bit rogue there and is based on 47K, and I should try the 1:20 windings for Denon... but never hurts to ask.
Thanks Salas.
@pfarrell
Switches as mentioned for LoMC. You may install 100R 200R 400R 1K for S1 to S4. DL-103 regular type has 40 Ohm coils and you may need the 400R or 1000 Ohm load option. You can also parallel things with the switches. S4 on S3 on configures 1000 Ohm // 400 Ohm to make 285 Ohm for instance. And so on and so forth.
1:20 SUT ratio would overload your 40dB MM input FSP config with 6mV from your DL-103 and I don't recommend it. It will also reflect 117.5 Ohm load to the 103 instead of 470 Ohm for 1:10.
Many SUT have their secondary thought out for a 47K input along with the usual pF from cables and electronics. Not always reacting well to large MM input differences like 10K or 100K. In any case they reflect to the primary (what the cartridge sees) their secondary load divided by their step up ratio squared.
Switches as mentioned for LoMC. You may install 100R 200R 400R 1K for S1 to S4. DL-103 regular type has 40 Ohm coils and you may need the 400R or 1000 Ohm load option. You can also parallel things with the switches. S4 on S3 on configures 1000 Ohm // 400 Ohm to make 285 Ohm for instance. And so on and so forth.
1:20 SUT ratio would overload your 40dB MM input FSP config with 6mV from your DL-103 and I don't recommend it. It will also reflect 117.5 Ohm load to the 103 instead of 470 Ohm for 1:10.
Many SUT have their secondary thought out for a 47K input along with the usual pF from cables and electronics. Not always reacting well to large MM input differences like 10K or 100K. In any case they reflect to the primary (what the cartridge sees) their secondary load divided by their step up ratio squared.
Try those straight (one on at a time) for the DL-103 and if not very happy replace the 560R with a 400R to also try. Although its not unlikely 1K may prove your best. All new cartridges need a period of initial play for their compliance to settle from storage and for you to be familiarized with their best geometry settings on the arm as you know. Revisit loading auditions after a week or so. When their sound becomes warmer and more open due to all that.
The AT33Sa is stated at 0.4mV instead of 0.3mV which raises a question as if simply a PTG/II with another stylus profile. In any case its a looker.
Matching looks on an SL-1200G
Alexkosha has written few words about initial feelings of transition to the newer from the older phono guise. By now he maybe has more to tell (?)
Non-ferrous blade on the tablesaw and miter saw...plus some 2D design and files uploaded to services like: Laser-cut metal parts Shipped Fast | Instant Quotes
For vent holes and such—if you want to get fancy—otherwise drill press and time...
For vent holes and such—if you want to get fancy—otherwise drill press and time...
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Purgatory
@pfarrell
Really nice.
I have to come up with a better way. Like use a shop like you mentioned to cut vent holes, etc. I have tortured myself big time on my Salas DCG3 pre with UBib 1.3's and I-Select trying to interface with the Modu Shop perforated hole (10mm centers) plate. I want the ventilation but I am in matchup hell. I might shift gears mid stream. Complicated by fact I have custom built heat sinks for the UBib 1.3's for cooling. I like the work you do so thank you. What plate thickness do you use?
I am a big Salas fan but I have to find a better way than I am doing to put it together. Complicated by lack of time trying to run a business in California during Covid-19. Rant off.
Thanks.
Regards,
Don
@pfarrell
Really nice.
I have to come up with a better way. Like use a shop like you mentioned to cut vent holes, etc. I have tortured myself big time on my Salas DCG3 pre with UBib 1.3's and I-Select trying to interface with the Modu Shop perforated hole (10mm centers) plate. I want the ventilation but I am in matchup hell. I might shift gears mid stream. Complicated by fact I have custom built heat sinks for the UBib 1.3's for cooling. I like the work you do so thank you. What plate thickness do you use?
I am a big Salas fan but I have to find a better way than I am doing to put it together. Complicated by lack of time trying to run a business in California during Covid-19. Rant off.
Thanks.
Regards,
Don
Thanks! Chassis are definitely a challenge. I've been using a range of thicknesses. If you check the link you will see that in aluminum they have a really nice range. .375" panels can be directly tapped (side rails), then top, bottom, back, front for whatever you are trying to achieve. That image I posted has the board hanging from the top—so I went thicker, .187". For Ultra, .375" for side rails as a foundation, .125" for bottom "heat sinks", went .08" for the top with a design cut into it, .125" for back and front—though the actual front will be wood over metal for max faraday. The real challenge is finishing the raw aluminum—Johnson wax works really well after you brush/polish it to preserve the look. Media blasting would be ideal—as would anodizing. After all this—informing a layout—6L6 and I will see what we can pull of with a Modushop version...try to get this phono masterpiece into as many hands as possible!
pfarell, just a side question—does the wood influence the shielding anyhow, or are you using the metal (mu?) for it, and the wooden cover for aesthetic shielding?
Shouldn’t it be „boxed“ all around for efficient shielding effect?
I just have some fragmented knowledge of all that and try to expand...
I fixed my original FSP. It is the one with wrong C3 caps. Thanks to Salas and his dedication to details. He found my mistake. So, I use 0.1uF Mundorfs now and re-boxed it.
About AT-ART9:
I purchased one from LP GEAR about 4-5 years ago. It is very nice cart and based on my subjective opinion, it is way better sounding one than my Bentz Micro made Ply (it is a “Glider”, modified for Wilson Benesch). I didn’t ever regret for my decision to acquire it. These new models more expensive, but might sound even better than already classic ART9! I had only one challenge with it and it is hard to set it up (may be I’m spoiled by not encapsulated carts in the past). Its Al body and its bottom cover is quite bulky, and it is blocking view of cantilever/stylus during fine tuning.
About FSP vs. UltFSP SQ:
My UFSP definitely has more airy sound. I started to feel that right after first warm-up. I also hear well defined and very articulated sound. Lot of details that I missed on FSP. Also, it is more silent noise-wise than FSP.
However, I’m not sure if it is a fair comparison for my case since I used different caps:
FSP C3 and C4 both are Mundorf Supreme SilverOil
UFSP C3 is Mundorf Supreme SilverGoldOil and C4 is ClarityCap CMR
Also, I used different resistors:
FSP is mostly with PRP 1%, 100PPM
UFSP is uses mix with mostly 0.1%, 50PPM.
Gain is almost the same on both units and both uses Vishay’s z-foils for critical locations.
About AT-ART9:
I purchased one from LP GEAR about 4-5 years ago. It is very nice cart and based on my subjective opinion, it is way better sounding one than my Bentz Micro made Ply (it is a “Glider”, modified for Wilson Benesch). I didn’t ever regret for my decision to acquire it. These new models more expensive, but might sound even better than already classic ART9! I had only one challenge with it and it is hard to set it up (may be I’m spoiled by not encapsulated carts in the past). Its Al body and its bottom cover is quite bulky, and it is blocking view of cantilever/stylus during fine tuning.
About FSP vs. UltFSP SQ:
My UFSP definitely has more airy sound. I started to feel that right after first warm-up. I also hear well defined and very articulated sound. Lot of details that I missed on FSP. Also, it is more silent noise-wise than FSP.
However, I’m not sure if it is a fair comparison for my case since I used different caps:
FSP C3 and C4 both are Mundorf Supreme SilverOil
UFSP C3 is Mundorf Supreme SilverGoldOil and C4 is ClarityCap CMR
Also, I used different resistors:
FSP is mostly with PRP 1%, 100PPM
UFSP is uses mix with mostly 0.1%, 50PPM.
Gain is almost the same on both units and both uses Vishay’s z-foils for critical locations.
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But why we see a Clarity MR blue C4 in the first photo instead of a Mundorf SUPSO as described? Also C3 is a SUPSGO not a SUPSO as described. Shot at different points in time after some parts swaps or from two different FSPs or something?
P.S.
We can see the described C3 C4 Supreme Silver Oils in an older post of yours #17921. In post #17913 they are both MR blue though. Two different FSP builds.
P.S.
We can see the described C3 C4 Supreme Silver Oils in an older post of yours #17921. In post #17913 they are both MR blue though. Two different FSP builds.
@myleftear—
Almost every amp I've built to date has had a wood front in one form or another: F5, Aleph J, M2X monoblocks (Current)—Wayne's BA18 Pre, ZM Iron Pre—FSP.
Recently built an Aikido pre that deviated from this with a full alu enclosure and wood over alu front for looks—I would easily label it "quiet" though I can tell when it's on—there is a slight hush (ear to cone) perhaps the nature of tubes?. I haven't noticed any adverse effects. I haven't A/B'd any of it either. My speaks are 97db—so they are quite revealing. Aleph J is the only project I would say is "not quiet"—but it has a sweetness that is only recently back I think due to Aikido—but haven't lost any of "clarity" I gained from M2X. And the quietest pre is Wayne's. We are talking ear right to cone here.
FSP NEEDS it's lid on—I can hear a difference with it off. Also heard a difference before I roughed up all the contact points where the chassis pieces connect. I would say perhaps—that may indicate further benefit from putting back some missing aluminum on the front? UFSP chassis will have wood for looks over aluminum—so maybe we will see? With FSP powered (SUT config.) on the "noise floor" goes up a hair (It's really more like "absolutely barely")—and proceeds to change with different carts—This is a new experience for me—I think it's progress with the rest of the system and in general.
@alexkosha—
Nice case! Details about the board and meter????? Fabulous. Is this from the same person that made the wood sided ones? This chassis looks like it's fabbed from some "factory available" items—corner pieces—if not from a branded company? More info if you have it!
I'm laying out UFSP wide and shallow around 340x160mm, 50mmH. Do you see an overall benefit to the shielded trasnfo?—assuming in regard to proximity in the rest of your system.
Almost every amp I've built to date has had a wood front in one form or another: F5, Aleph J, M2X monoblocks (Current)—Wayne's BA18 Pre, ZM Iron Pre—FSP.
Recently built an Aikido pre that deviated from this with a full alu enclosure and wood over alu front for looks—I would easily label it "quiet" though I can tell when it's on—there is a slight hush (ear to cone) perhaps the nature of tubes?. I haven't noticed any adverse effects. I haven't A/B'd any of it either. My speaks are 97db—so they are quite revealing. Aleph J is the only project I would say is "not quiet"—but it has a sweetness that is only recently back I think due to Aikido—but haven't lost any of "clarity" I gained from M2X. And the quietest pre is Wayne's. We are talking ear right to cone here.
FSP NEEDS it's lid on—I can hear a difference with it off. Also heard a difference before I roughed up all the contact points where the chassis pieces connect. I would say perhaps—that may indicate further benefit from putting back some missing aluminum on the front? UFSP chassis will have wood for looks over aluminum—so maybe we will see? With FSP powered (SUT config.) on the "noise floor" goes up a hair (It's really more like "absolutely barely")—and proceeds to change with different carts—This is a new experience for me—I think it's progress with the rest of the system and in general.
@alexkosha—
Nice case! Details about the board and meter????? Fabulous. Is this from the same person that made the wood sided ones? This chassis looks like it's fabbed from some "factory available" items—corner pieces—if not from a branded company? More info if you have it!
I'm laying out UFSP wide and shallow around 340x160mm, 50mmH. Do you see an overall benefit to the shielded trasnfo?—assuming in regard to proximity in the rest of your system.
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Absolutely right. It is two different FSPs.
#17913 one was connected to Triode pre with 100k input impedance. Therefore, I intended to use 0.047uF in C3 position. Ended up there with 0.47uF due to supplier mistake and my lack of verification.
My UltFSP replaced one described in #17921.