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Old 11th June 2010, 02:58 PM   #3901
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewT View Post
Hi R Cruz,
your listening impression is correct. Don't doubt yourself.

One of the reason for changing from conical tip to elliptical and other similar breeds was to get the tip out of the grunge in the bottom of the groove.
Merlin's stated advantage of the conical is arguably why we should not use a conical tip.

I am aware of some other claimed advantages of the special tips.

Longer contact radius resulting in less wear of the tip and groove.

Narrower side radius resulting in the ability to follow higher frequency information.
This same narrower radius also reduces pinch up as the frequency rises. This pinch up adds stereo information that is not part of the cut groove. It is out of phase information that detracts from the real stereo picture.

Larger bottom radius to lift the tip away from the debris.

The Big disadvantage of the elliptical tips is the need for much more accurate setting up to get the two contact strips/lines to match the cutting edges of the groove blade.
I don't stated advantatge, only tell one possible reason what's people agree more conical than elliptical

I believe more in proper set-up than only the kind of tips, there is a lot ot other reasons for good set-up, not all final sound depends only of tip, mine point of view is that argument will be not serious for me

Last edited by merlin el mago; 11th June 2010 at 03:05 PM.
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Old 11th June 2010, 05:06 PM   #3902
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Quote:
The Big disadvantage of the elliptical tips is the need for much more accurate setting up to get the two contact strips/lines to match the cutting edges of the groove blade.
With normal tonearms, you never get enough accurate setting. You will need a tangential arm with all its drawbacks.

A well adjusted conical needle works very well, very safe tracking, no ageing of the records and so on.

Quote:
I believe more in proper set-up than only the kind of tips, there is a lot ot other reasons for good set-up, not all final sound depends only of tip, mine point of view is that argument will be not serious for me
I would subscribe this statement. The whole system is the solution. Many ways are leading to rome. And in the end, the differences are very subtle.

Quote:
another good idea but a very difficult is to take off the body plastic of Denon DL103R to get less mass, please let me know your subjective impressions with less mass?
Not to difficult, I already made it (just look the video from Thomas Schick how to do it YouTube - Denon DL-103 Wood Body Modification Tutorial ).

But: I dont like the unprotected cantilever, no possibility to protect it. And you dont have good mounting points afterwards.

Look this picture, it is my first DL103 I had:

At one point it began to play with strong distortion and I did not know the cause. After striping down the enclosure, I discovered this situation:

Click the image to open in full size.

Iron parts in the air gap! I handled this cartridge on my workbench, where I worked before with iron...

Back to the actual situation:

I just followed the consult to reduce arms mass and removed the coin and readjusted the tracking weight.

Not sure, if I was really on the wrong side, yet.

Franz
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Old 11th June 2010, 05:47 PM   #3903
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I see the video that's was mine suggestion to get less mass.

Sound-smith do several upgrades for Denon DL103R if you want only the wood body for 103 cost with shipping 235$00 to Europe & you avoid the problem to fix the cart.

Wow, very nice photo with a lot of iron dust, can't clean up?

Last edited by merlin el mago; 11th June 2010 at 05:52 PM.
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Old 11th June 2010, 05:52 PM   #3904
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Quote:
Wow, very nice photo with a lot of iron dust, can't clean up?
No, I destroyed the coils when trying to remove with pressure air.

Maybe I should have used bluetack?

But the wires are very very very thin.

Franz
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Old 11th June 2010, 05:59 PM   #3905
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I'am afraid to remove mine plastic for this reasons: very thin wires & cantiliver break possibilities so I am waiting till tip don't play to send for rettiping & possible upgrading cantiliver + tip in Sound-Smith.

Let me know how works with less mass?
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Old 11th June 2010, 06:30 PM   #3906
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bluetack is a nice idea , adesive tape ?

or this ones

http://www.cyberclean.it/cybercleanc...=390&width=470
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Old 11th June 2010, 07:05 PM   #3907
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nicoch46 View Post
bluetack is a nice idea , adesive tape ?

or this ones

http://www.cyberclean.it/cybercleanc...=390&width=470
cyberclean: Swiss formula? or seems for USA people more exotic...
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Old 11th June 2010, 07:14 PM   #3908
RCruz is offline RCruz  Switzerland
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I mean that eliptical, fine line, and other tips can sound much better than conical ones. That was my experience along the years.

They pick less surface noise, track better and produce more defined highs.

Of course they are more difficult to align !
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Old 11th June 2010, 07:25 PM   #3909
RCruz is offline RCruz  Switzerland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Franz Gysi View Post
Iron parts in the air gap! I handled this cartridge on my workbench, where I worked before with iron...
This is another first for me... I never imagined this danger... Now I believe it is quite possible to happen... the magnets in MC carts are VERY powerfull.

Once my Benz captured the screwdriver with such force I could not help it (It did not reach the cantilever by luck)
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Old 12th June 2010, 11:55 AM   #3910
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@Rcruz
Magnets used are: Samarium-Cobalt (Allaerts, Koetsu, Kuzma, Transfiguration & Technics), Neodymium (Allaerts, My Sonic Lab, Transfiguration & Air Tight) or Alnico (Allaerts, Audio Note, Dynavector, Red Rose, Van den Hul & Miyabi), Platinum (Koetsu, Lyra).

What about the Tracking Ability at recommended Tracking Force at ...Hz measured in um, how to know or calculate the tracking ability of our cart?

@Franz
I read this about your TP16 in the Turnatable Forum Vinyl:

http://www.vinylengine.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=68395

"The effective mass of the original TP16 (which you have) should be within the necessary range for the Denon. TP16 is rated at 16 g effective mass. The DL103 and R are noted for working well on older heavier arms. Effective mass in the range of 14 to 20 has been suggested by more than a few enthusiastic owners of these Denon carts.

That said, the TP16 has some weak areas which will likely come to fore when a cartridge with a stiffly sprung cantilever is mounted. (like the Denon) Mainly, the weakness of the Tp16 is in how resonances travel throughout the arm. First point of weakness is the headshell mounting joint. You can improve this point by making sure that the coupler nut is good and snug. Don't use tools. Do it by hand. Just make sure you have a solid coupling between headshell and arm tube.....without bending or breaking anything. (Know your own strength.)

The next weak area is in the pivot bearings within the gimbal frame. These are needle and cup and are reputed to be .....uhm, 'consumer grade' quality. You can make sure that the adjustment is good by testing for slack. Lightly grip the arm tube with one hand while gently holding the tonearm at its base with the other, then gently pull/push. Note any free play. If you detect free play, an adjustment is needed at the bearings. Sorry, I don't offer a tutorial on this but the mechanical attachments of these bearings should be self explanatory. The object is to remove all slack within between needles and cups while maintaining free frictionless motion.

Another test of bearing adjustment (for not being too tight) is to set tracking force to zero, anti-skate to zero, balance arm by adjusting position of counterweight so that the headshell end floats in space. Adjust level of turntable so that the arm does not track to either end of its travel. Then lightly blow your breath on the headshell. If it moves, that is a good sign. Even further, is to test this adjustment by waving a piece of paper to generate air movement. If the arm responds to this, even better. Once satisfied of good bearing adjustment, and proper zero balance, re-set the tracking force and anti-skate by means of the adjusters on the TP16. The tracking force adjuster is accurate in its setting. The anti-skate adjuster is approximate in its setting.

After that just make sure you have good cartridge alignment. Make sure your headshell lead clips fit snug to the posts. Stuff like that.

I wouldn't give too much influence to the hfnrr test record. It has its uses. I find it useful for measuring arm/cart resonance at frequency. Also of note are the bias tracks on side one. Tracks 5 thru 9. These are explained to be for adjusting bias. And to a point you can use these for tuning your anti-skate. But...in reality these are torture tracks and reveal the overall tracking ability of your tonearm. You will see greater response to a vtf adjustment while testing over these tracks. With the Tp16, any slack in your bearings will result in a very poor score on tracks 5 thru 9. At one time I witnessed a TP16 literally jump out of the groove on track 9. After bearing adjustment and an increase in the vtf setting, the same tonearm fared better over these tracks."

Waiting can help you.

Last edited by merlin el mago; 12th June 2010 at 12:01 PM.
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