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Analogue Source Turntables, Tonearms, Cartridges, Phono Stages, Tuners, Tape Recorders, etc.

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Old 19th October 2013, 03:22 PM   #10221
RCruz is offline RCruz  Switzerland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefanoo View Post
Don't get me wrong, I see it just like you. I am bringing it up because lately on these forums I have read a lot of people claiming superiority of old decks, old arms, old cartridge just as if time passed for nothing.
Then you get somebody who has everything vintage and then because his cartridge is not working anymore, he was forced to try something new and found it to be better...and it was simply a low end Dynavector

I feel a lot of people are just stuck at the romance of old stuff, or simply can afford new stuff. I believe that some of the few selected vintage audio stuff, still performs certainly good but not up to new hi-end stuff!
I agree, evolution is everywhere ... I have never heard old riaa amps sound as good as the ones I am used to now, and the latest new carts are better than the old ones .... it is normal.
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Old 19th October 2013, 05:40 PM   #10222
Marra is offline Marra  United Kingdom
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Originally Posted by AndrewT View Post
Forget I typed.
Not at all;it's something to bear in mind for the future projects should I have a similar problem.
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Old 19th October 2013, 10:59 PM   #10223
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Originally Posted by analog_sa View Post
As always, generalisations are dangerous Stefano. A lot of the new stuff is really bad - some time ago i opened a thread about a famous German turntable maker and the main bearings they produce. Apparently they wear out as fast as a decent stylus

Otoh, i cannot see myself ever using a vintage arm. I have owned the entire old SME range and several Ortofons and they are all - IMO only - terrible. Musical may be one way of calling it, but for some people MP3s are also musical.

Then again, once you go modern and really high end, the differences between good digital and good analogue become almost trivial. So, what's the point?
I wasn't trying to generalize...not everything is good, that is as given!
I said hi-end in my vocabulary doesn't include everything
But...yes...people obsessed with vintage should IMO give a real/honest try to new things that are worth their money! The only thing...ain't going to be cheap...and maybe that is why a lot if people live their dreams that a $500 Lenco better a $10K or even more good sounding TT! Same goes for the rest of the gears.
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Old 20th October 2013, 07:31 AM   #10224
nezbleu is offline nezbleu  Canada
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You are not wrong. The retail price of good-quality vinyl playback equipment has outstripped inflation, and many of us "audio cheapskates" look at cheaply built turntables selling for >$500, and find that they compare poorly against used tables selling for a lot less. Of course, many of those old, used tables need some TLC, mods, and upgrades to perform at their best -- but we are DIYers! For us that is a plus. Anybody with enough coin in their pocket can go buy the latest and greatest, but those of us who love to build things take more pleasure in restoring and modifying old gear.

I don't think any of us cheapskates think a $500 Lenco (if there was such a thing, what's the going rate for a good Lenco these days?) is better than a $10K modern TT (really? is that the bar now, ten grand?), but I think we all agree that a $500 (or more) Lenco or Thorens can, with a little attention, out-perform new gear selling for the same price or more. Plus we get the fun of messing with it, which one is disinclined to do to a new item costing the same amount.

Anyway, I have spent some time and money this past year restoring and improving an old Thorens TD 160. I'm not done yet, a few things to do before it s where I want it. But I think it already outperforms a lot of modern turntables that cost a lot more than I have paid so far, and it has given me a lot of pleasure (rebuilding it and listening to it). But no, I don't think it outperforms the best of today's gear, or even the best gear of 30 years ago (I think an Oracle would be a lot better, but that's from a different era than the Thorens and costs a lot more).

Of course, I never claimed my gear is "high end" -- but if I owned "high end" gear, I wouldn't be hanging around here and building stuff.
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Old 20th October 2013, 07:43 AM   #10225
nezbleu is offline nezbleu  Canada
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Back on topic: Salas, I am wondering about the two coupling caps in the folded boards (C3 and C4). One sometimes finds good deals on good quality capacitors, but not always in the value one is looking for. So is there any down-side to using larger value caps in those positions (assuming they physically fit and are good quality)? Like if I found a nice cap I could use at C3, which is supposed to be 0.1uF, but the cap I found is around 0.22uF. Other than good things (lower high-pass frequency, less phase shift in the audio band), will it have other FR effects? Will increasing the value of C3 (or C4) add an audible bass bump, or would that just be an insignificant change?
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Old 20th October 2013, 08:10 AM   #10226
Salas is offline Salas  Greece
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With turntables more infrasonic FR is not a good thing. Its looking for problems. They got the majority of resonance modes below 20Hz. Some discs add some of their own too.
0.047uF for large speakers and light construction TTs is safe. 0.1uF is roof value IMHO, better suited to less susceptible TTs and better controlled woofers or medium size boxes.
I have tried with higher values and my experience is they bloat the bass. Maybe with bookshelf speakers more value will not be noticeable or even be a bit synergistic but I haven't tested.
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Old 21st October 2013, 12:53 AM   #10227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nezbleu View Post
You are not wrong. The retail price of good-quality vinyl playback equipment has outstripped inflation, and many of us "audio cheapskates" look at cheaply built turntables selling for >$500, and find that they compare poorly against used tables selling for a lot less. Of course, many of those old, used tables need some TLC, mods, and upgrades to perform at their best -- but we are DIYers! For us that is a plus. Anybody with enough coin in their pocket can go buy the latest and greatest, but those of us who love to build things take more pleasure in restoring and modifying old gear.

I don't think any of us cheapskates think a $500 Lenco (if there was such a thing, what's the going rate for a good Lenco these days?) is better than a $10K modern TT (really? is that the bar now, ten grand?), but I think we all agree that a $500 (or more) Lenco or Thorens can, with a little attention, out-perform new gear selling for the same price or more. Plus we get the fun of messing with it, which one is disinclined to do to a new item costing the same amount.

Anyway, I have spent some time and money this past year restoring and improving an old Thorens TD 160. I'm not done yet, a few things to do before it s where I want it. But I think it already outperforms a lot of modern turntables that cost a lot more than I have paid so far, and it has given me a lot of pleasure (rebuilding it and listening to it). But no, I don't think it outperforms the best of today's gear, or even the best gear of 30 years ago (I think an Oracle would be a lot better, but that's from a different era than the Thorens and costs a lot more).

Of course, I never claimed my gear is "high end" -- but if I owned "high end" gear, I wouldn't be hanging around here and building stuff.
I totally agree with you and you got the right perspective.
Unfortunately many lenco, technics owner don't think like you and they feel there almost nothing else.
However I do agree that a properly restored thrones or lenco will definitely perform way beyond their paid price!!
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Old 21st October 2013, 01:56 AM   #10228
nezbleu is offline nezbleu  Canada
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Originally Posted by Salas View Post
I have tried with higher values and my experience is they bloat the bass.
Thanks Salas, that is useful information. I will make my decisions with that in mind.
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Old 21st October 2013, 08:47 AM   #10229
Marra is offline Marra  United Kingdom
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I have some 47uf 50V Black Gate F's would there be any benefit to using them for C5/7? If there is which position to use? Thanks.
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Old 21st October 2013, 08:56 AM   #10230
Salas is offline Salas  Greece
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C5 position is best place if not to spare more for C7 position which is less subjectively influential.
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