I just want to share my own and very positive experience with this tweak proposed by Doug Deacon and discussed at A-gon:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1215361521&openflup&28&4#28
In short, the holographic mylar tape sourced from McCormick was treated with special paste to remove metallic backing and expose texture pattern embedded in mylar. This gives much better grip on the motor pulley and substantially reduces micro-slipping. Sonic improvement comparing to the plain mylar tape is nothig short of amazing.
Very minor belt slippage on the pully is inevitable, whatever you do. I belive the fine texture on the "holographic" belt breaks the slippage to infinitevely small portions, making it more even. As you can see on the picture, texture pattern on the tape is extremely fine, you can hardly see it with the magnifying glass, only "rainbow" effect is visible.
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1215361521&openflup&28&4#28
In short, the holographic mylar tape sourced from McCormick was treated with special paste to remove metallic backing and expose texture pattern embedded in mylar. This gives much better grip on the motor pulley and substantially reduces micro-slipping. Sonic improvement comparing to the plain mylar tape is nothig short of amazing.
Very minor belt slippage on the pully is inevitable, whatever you do. I belive the fine texture on the "holographic" belt breaks the slippage to infinitevely small portions, making it more even. As you can see on the picture, texture pattern on the tape is extremely fine, you can hardly see it with the magnifying glass, only "rainbow" effect is visible.
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Interesting
I've just done some experiments with different threads, the nylon (that's mylar, right?) one recommended by Scheu, and different sewing threads. Never thought it would make that much difference, like listening to a different TT.
Experiments didn't last very long, nylon is the best, period.
I'll give the tape a try some time..
I've just done some experiments with different threads, the nylon (that's mylar, right?) one recommended by Scheu, and different sewing threads. Never thought it would make that much difference, like listening to a different TT.
Experiments didn't last very long, nylon is the best, period.
I'll give the tape a try some time..
Mylar
Mylar (DuPont trade mark) is actually kind of polyester; it is stronger than nylon and virtually non-stretchable. It was material of choice for all magnetic and VCR tapes. I belive it sounds like consensus among TT gurus (confirmed by my own humble experience), that any trace of compliance shall be removed from the TT drive chain. Compliance=energy storage=time delay= sound smearing. (Rubber belts is no-no for serious TT).
There is a good thread in Audio Asylum discussing belt creep, if you are interested: http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl...&highlight=stretching+Mark+Kelly&r=&session=. Bottom line: you cannot completely get rid of the belt slippage against motor pulley, you can only minimize it. Yes, this is the ticket: bring slippage to an absolute minimum. In terms of pulley grip, wide tape (1/2") is naturally better than thin thread. For the constant and even grip, holographic tape is the winner.
So, I started with plain VCR 1/2" tape, replaced it by McCormick's thicker black mylar streamer, then added the belt tensioner to it and finally holographich tape took over. This makes me think that one of well kept secrets of the top TT design is quality of the drive chain (often underestimated). Holographic tape brought me a major sonic improvement accross the board, even in unexpected areas, like bass definition.
Mylar (DuPont trade mark) is actually kind of polyester; it is stronger than nylon and virtually non-stretchable. It was material of choice for all magnetic and VCR tapes. I belive it sounds like consensus among TT gurus (confirmed by my own humble experience), that any trace of compliance shall be removed from the TT drive chain. Compliance=energy storage=time delay= sound smearing. (Rubber belts is no-no for serious TT).
There is a good thread in Audio Asylum discussing belt creep, if you are interested: http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl...&highlight=stretching+Mark+Kelly&r=&session=. Bottom line: you cannot completely get rid of the belt slippage against motor pulley, you can only minimize it. Yes, this is the ticket: bring slippage to an absolute minimum. In terms of pulley grip, wide tape (1/2") is naturally better than thin thread. For the constant and even grip, holographic tape is the winner.
So, I started with plain VCR 1/2" tape, replaced it by McCormick's thicker black mylar streamer, then added the belt tensioner to it and finally holographich tape took over. This makes me think that one of well kept secrets of the top TT design is quality of the drive chain (often underestimated). Holographic tape brought me a major sonic improvement accross the board, even in unexpected areas, like bass definition.
Etching cream you can probably buy from a hobby shop that has stained-glass supplies. Here's an example; note that they (like other suppliers of this stuff) will not ship it by air, so you probably want to look for a closer source.
Silver holographic mylar tape is readily available,
here for example.
Google is your friend.
Regards.
Aengus
Silver holographic mylar tape is readily available,
here for example.
Google is your friend.
Regards.
Aengus
Hi Binspaul, perhaps you would like to read here
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=77997
Anyway, the silk belt has less traction skills than rubber, but with it TT sounds way better, because the compliance of rubber introduces delay, that makes sound smearing. So, using a good silk belt it seems to have just another TT. The knot is not a problem. The thread is thin, and the knot is the same. You mount the belt with the knot facing outside, so the pulley and counterplatter surfaces won't feel it. I began to use a silk belt months ago and I would never go back to rubber.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=77997
Anyway, the silk belt has less traction skills than rubber, but with it TT sounds way better, because the compliance of rubber introduces delay, that makes sound smearing. So, using a good silk belt it seems to have just another TT. The knot is not a problem. The thread is thin, and the knot is the same. You mount the belt with the knot facing outside, so the pulley and counterplatter surfaces won't feel it. I began to use a silk belt months ago and I would never go back to rubber.
In detail, first there is a wider soundstage, that with a good rig goes quite outside the speakers, with a better 3D effect.
Mid and highs are purer and cleaner, a kind of improvement that could remember what happens when an MC cart takes the place of an MM. Better overall detail, tighter and more extended bass are other improvements. Also, as the surgical silk is very strong, it lasts forever. So there is no need to search for expensive spare belts anymore.
As the silk has not the same damping properties as rubber, for the noise coming from the motor is easier to pass to the platter. This means that sometimes there could be a slightly noisier cueing, noticeable in the silent intervals between the tracks. This is nothing to be worried about, as the improvements largely overtake this drawback.
Mid and highs are purer and cleaner, a kind of improvement that could remember what happens when an MC cart takes the place of an MM. Better overall detail, tighter and more extended bass are other improvements. Also, as the surgical silk is very strong, it lasts forever. So there is no need to search for expensive spare belts anymore.
As the silk has not the same damping properties as rubber, for the noise coming from the motor is easier to pass to the platter. This means that sometimes there could be a slightly noisier cueing, noticeable in the silent intervals between the tracks. This is nothing to be worried about, as the improvements largely overtake this drawback.
I've also tried nylon thread and silk thread, but not surgical silk. Damn if there isn't a difference based on the type of thread used, both being better than rubber by a wide margin. You do need a speed controller to make it work properly though.
I also like the silk better than the nylon. The nylon was noticeably more forward and "clinical" than the silk, whcih had a better organic quality to my ears and in my rig.
Wish I could try a mylar belt, but that wouldn't fit on my spindle.
Enjoy,
Bob
I also like the silk better than the nylon. The nylon was noticeably more forward and "clinical" than the silk, whcih had a better organic quality to my ears and in my rig.
Wish I could try a mylar belt, but that wouldn't fit on my spindle.
Enjoy,
Bob
Sorry, but I don't know what a square knot is. With my belts I make a knot doing a small circle near the end of the doubled thread and then passing the end of the thread in it. Then I pull and that's it.
About the diameter, it goes accordingly to the sound characteristics of your rig. For example with the VdH DDT II S I prefer a big diameter, that gives more strength on bass and dynamics. With the Fidelity Research MC 201 the thinnest one seems better, giving more opennes to mid and highs.
About the diameter, it goes accordingly to the sound characteristics of your rig. For example with the VdH DDT II S I prefer a big diameter, that gives more strength on bass and dynamics. With the Fidelity Research MC 201 the thinnest one seems better, giving more opennes to mid and highs.
Here in Israel we are probably closer to heaven, but further away from the sources of such exotic supply like holographic mylar type. But thanks to the global web we have a solution for such problems:Dan_ed said:
http://www.galibierdesign.com/support.html
BTW, McCormick's shipping prices are absolutely outrageous! I'm just asking my american friends to pick it up when they happen to visit our country.
Well, I'm glad for you that you have a means to source mylar.
It is interesting that someone from Isreal approached me through the Galibier website about sending them some mylar. Which I did to the tune of $18 and never heard from them again. I'm sure this person must have been in a very bad situation since that $18 meant so much to them. I'm still trying to find a way to count it against my income tax as a charitable contribution.
But I can assure every one that I will let the members of the Galibier forum that there are such people lurking about.
It is interesting that someone from Isreal approached me through the Galibier website about sending them some mylar. Which I did to the tune of $18 and never heard from them again. I'm sure this person must have been in a very bad situation since that $18 meant so much to them. I'm still trying to find a way to count it against my income tax as a charitable contribution.
But I can assure every one that I will let the members of the Galibier forum that there are such people lurking about.
Well, some people think the DIY communuty are mostly cheap tinkerers..
McCormick wanted to charge me 50+ bucks for shipment of single coil of tape. I found it ridiculous and asked a friend to bring the tape along with him from US. Anyway, I believe we'd better stick wich technical matters and instead of chasing the guy who stole your $18. Just in case you are asking - it was not me.
Peace,
Michael
McCormick wanted to charge me 50+ bucks for shipment of single coil of tape. I found it ridiculous and asked a friend to bring the tape along with him from US. Anyway, I believe we'd better stick wich technical matters and instead of chasing the guy who stole your $18. Just in case you are asking - it was not me.
Peace,
Michael
This guy said he has a Platine Verdier, goes by the name Gid, and his email address is
Slim878@walla.co.il
I hope he gets deluged with spam after I post his email here. I could probably dig up his street address as well.
Back OT,
using the mylar to create a tighter coupling between the motor and platter does work well, but may actually cause more problems if used with the wrong motor. Like one that has cogging. You will impart this to the platter.
Another issue with using mylar is that it does hold static electricity very, very well. I find it necessary to use my carbon fiber brush at the start of each play session. It is amazing sometimes how much dust comes off. That dust has a pronounced negative impact on platter drive.
If one does get this mylar belt working for them I can suggest next looking at speed control. Now that you have this kind of tight coupling you will be able to pick out those tiny differences with speed fluctuations.
Slim878@walla.co.il
I hope he gets deluged with spam after I post his email here.
I could probably dig up his street address as well.Back OT,
using the mylar to create a tighter coupling between the motor and platter does work well, but may actually cause more problems if used with the wrong motor. Like one that has cogging. You will impart this to the platter.
Another issue with using mylar is that it does hold static electricity very, very well. I find it necessary to use my carbon fiber brush at the start of each play session. It is amazing sometimes how much dust comes off. That dust has a pronounced negative impact on platter drive.
If one does get this mylar belt working for them I can suggest next looking at speed control. Now that you have this kind of tight coupling you will be able to pick out those tiny differences with speed fluctuations.
Glad we are back on technical track.
I use Teres Signature II motor; do you think battery power option may bring worthwhile improvement? Electricity net in my area is fairly stable.
I have no problem with statics, because I live close to the sea (high humiduty). I've learned from experience, that it is crucial to keep the belt clean; I clean mine with alcohol every month or so.
I use Teres Signature II motor; do you think battery power option may bring worthwhile improvement? Electricity net in my area is fairly stable.
I have no problem with statics, because I live close to the sea (high humiduty). I've learned from experience, that it is crucial to keep the belt clean; I clean mine with alcohol every month or so.
Most everyone I know who has moved to battery power with the Maxon motors has found it to be quieter, so you may also get some improvement with the battery option. I believe Doug has also reported that he gets better results with a battery of a certain internal resistance because of the input resistance of the Teres circuitry. I can't remember the specifics but I'm sure one could find it with a search at A'gon.
Geetings from Galibier,
There are quite a few variables involved, and this entire belt "thing" needs to be considered as a part of a complete system - comprising the motor, bearing, lubrication (viscosity), and platter mass.
Dan made an interesting post in the Analog section of Audiogon about turntables that employ some form of braking in their bearing. The word friction was used by the original poster, but what he was trying to talk about "drag" ... for example the resistance to turning imparted by viscuous oil.
In theory, this drag can "simulate" platter mass in many ways, by swamping the effects of stylus drag on speed stability.
Sometimes, the theory works as expected ...
Here at Galibier, we like thin oil and siff belts. In other turntable designs with looser tolerances in their bearings, thin oil is a liablity (for several reasons), but we've found (much like the Micro Seiki users), that thin oil in our rigs imparts a more dynamic presentation with no sonic penalty.
The important thing to keep in mind is that there's an ideal solution for every configuration, and parameters need to be balanced against each other.
As far as belts are concerned, the noisier the motor is (pulses, etc.), the more filtering is required in the form of a compliant belt.
We use a very quiet motor at Galibier, so we benefit greatly from Mylar belts. In experimentation with garden-variety AC motors (using sophisticated controllers), there was still too much pulsing coming out of the drive system, and a Mylar belt was more of a liability than a benefit.
In a perfect world, we'd have the ideal direct drive turntable with a perfectly smooth and quite motor.
Faling that, we need to experiment with ideal solutions for a given architecture. If you change one parameter (belt material, oil, whatever) you need to reevaluate everything).
Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier
There are quite a few variables involved, and this entire belt "thing" needs to be considered as a part of a complete system - comprising the motor, bearing, lubrication (viscosity), and platter mass.
Dan made an interesting post in the Analog section of Audiogon about turntables that employ some form of braking in their bearing. The word friction was used by the original poster, but what he was trying to talk about "drag" ... for example the resistance to turning imparted by viscuous oil.
In theory, this drag can "simulate" platter mass in many ways, by swamping the effects of stylus drag on speed stability.
Sometimes, the theory works as expected ...
Here at Galibier, we like thin oil and siff belts. In other turntable designs with looser tolerances in their bearings, thin oil is a liablity (for several reasons), but we've found (much like the Micro Seiki users), that thin oil in our rigs imparts a more dynamic presentation with no sonic penalty.
The important thing to keep in mind is that there's an ideal solution for every configuration, and parameters need to be balanced against each other.
As far as belts are concerned, the noisier the motor is (pulses, etc.), the more filtering is required in the form of a compliant belt.
We use a very quiet motor at Galibier, so we benefit greatly from Mylar belts. In experimentation with garden-variety AC motors (using sophisticated controllers), there was still too much pulsing coming out of the drive system, and a Mylar belt was more of a liability than a benefit.
In a perfect world, we'd have the ideal direct drive turntable with a perfectly smooth and quite motor.
Faling that, we need to experiment with ideal solutions for a given architecture. If you change one parameter (belt material, oil, whatever) you need to reevaluate everything).
Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier
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