Revive Ariston RD11S
Like the previous post i have been wanting to breath some new life into my old RD11s with Rega RB300.
I'm not up to the extremes of adding new sub chassis or fitting Linn type power supplies etc,but could cope with adding damping/bracing etc to suggested locations,changing the base plate,mabye even changing the top plate.Ive already changed the original(corroding)steel spring bolts to stainless steel variety.I've also noticed lately that the motor makes a cogging sort of noise,similar to an old ceiling fan(not as loud of course)Any suggestions on a fix for this,and any detailed suggestions for just tweaking the whole unit ?
I've searched the web and these are the most common mods i've seen that seem "doable" for the average person.How good they are is another question that perhaps you could comment on!!
Change base board to thick MDF ?
Change all the bolts/nuts/screws to stainless steel variety?
Add nylon washers(aka tap washers) between lock nut and flat washers on springs?
Add some sort of tight plastic tubing/shrink wrap over the spring bolts?
Add foam washers under the rubber spring washers?
Add corner bracings to plinth?
Change the thin pressed metal cross bracing plate that holds the electricals with something more solid eg 5-8mm brass/aluminium/stainless plate?
Add some sort of damping(bitumous)material to the sub chassis,under the top plate and around the plinth sides?
Change the top plate to a different material???
Try and damp the platter (somehow)?
Use a Linn felt platter mat in place of the original rubber mat?
Change oil in bearing to EP90 gear oil,or use a moly based oil to reduce the effects of wear??
There are probably some others i saw,but cant remember them at this time.
I would be most appreciative if people could comment on the usefullness/effectiveness of any of the above mods for the Ariston RD11s.
Like the previous post i have been wanting to breath some new life into my old RD11s with Rega RB300.
I'm not up to the extremes of adding new sub chassis or fitting Linn type power supplies etc,but could cope with adding damping/bracing etc to suggested locations,changing the base plate,mabye even changing the top plate.Ive already changed the original(corroding)steel spring bolts to stainless steel variety.I've also noticed lately that the motor makes a cogging sort of noise,similar to an old ceiling fan(not as loud of course)Any suggestions on a fix for this,and any detailed suggestions for just tweaking the whole unit ?
I've searched the web and these are the most common mods i've seen that seem "doable" for the average person.How good they are is another question that perhaps you could comment on!!
Change base board to thick MDF ?
Change all the bolts/nuts/screws to stainless steel variety?
Add nylon washers(aka tap washers) between lock nut and flat washers on springs?
Add some sort of tight plastic tubing/shrink wrap over the spring bolts?
Add foam washers under the rubber spring washers?
Add corner bracings to plinth?
Change the thin pressed metal cross bracing plate that holds the electricals with something more solid eg 5-8mm brass/aluminium/stainless plate?
Add some sort of damping(bitumous)material to the sub chassis,under the top plate and around the plinth sides?
Change the top plate to a different material???
Try and damp the platter (somehow)?
Use a Linn felt platter mat in place of the original rubber mat?
Change oil in bearing to EP90 gear oil,or use a moly based oil to reduce the effects of wear??
There are probably some others i saw,but cant remember them at this time.
I would be most appreciative if people could comment on the usefullness/effectiveness of any of the above mods for the Ariston RD11s.
/sreten.Thanks for the link sreten,lots of good stuff there to try and digest,but also getting a little too esoteric for my humble abilities and even humbler wallet.I was hoping someone could tell which of the mods i listed actually make an improvement to the RD11s as opposed to those that have been tried and deemed not worthwhile.
I know for example there is a lot of argument about damping(or too much damping).To what extent should which components on the TT be damped?What in peoples experience is the best damping material to be used throughout the TT ?
Is MDF the best material to use on the baseplate?
These are the sort of details i was hoping to find advice about on the forum.Perhaps like me, a lot of RD11s owners are only now starting to mod their decks and that info has not really been compiled and circulated yet??
I know for example there is a lot of argument about damping(or too much damping).To what extent should which components on the TT be damped?What in peoples experience is the best damping material to be used throughout the TT ?
Is MDF the best material to use on the baseplate?
These are the sort of details i was hoping to find advice about on the forum.Perhaps like me, a lot of RD11s owners are only now starting to mod their decks and that info has not really been compiled and circulated yet??
Poor OP - a lot of ideas and confusion for you there.
Anyway, whether the P3 is the limiting factor and whether this arm is better than that aside, I do think that a denon DL110 or 160 would be a good choice. A MM preamp will drive it no problem and you get some of the benefits of both MM and MC.
I don't remember reading what preamp you were using?
Fran
Anyway, whether the P3 is the limiting factor and whether this arm is better than that aside, I do think that a denon DL110 or 160 would be a good choice. A MM preamp will drive it no problem and you get some of the benefits of both MM and MC.
I don't remember reading what preamp you were using?
Fran
Ariston RD11s dodgy design
Well,since no one else is going to continue this thread i hope you dont mind if i do.
Ive now pulled apart some of my Ariston RD11s and i notice that the sub chassis design is such that it appears that its application in the RD11s is more an afterthought (or use of spare parts that fitted) rather than a subchassis specifically designed for the RD11s.
It seems that the subchassis used was originally designed for another model as it has another armboard mounting already pre drilled into the sub chassis.
The armboard mounting for the RD11s has been tacked(spot welded on) to the side of the original subchassis.The design of the original sub chassis was quite symmetrical in its shape and its spring suspension points.The tacked on part of course throws out the symmetry,and probably the balance of the sub chassis,hence the two different rate suspension springs, and probably accounts for the extreme difficulty in setting the thing up.
Makes you wonder if the TT could have been that much better had a sub chassis been specifically designed for the RD11s.Makes you also wonder if the relatively pleasant music this TT produces is more by chance than by design.
Well,since no one else is going to continue this thread i hope you dont mind if i do.
Ive now pulled apart some of my Ariston RD11s and i notice that the sub chassis design is such that it appears that its application in the RD11s is more an afterthought (or use of spare parts that fitted) rather than a subchassis specifically designed for the RD11s.
It seems that the subchassis used was originally designed for another model as it has another armboard mounting already pre drilled into the sub chassis.
The armboard mounting for the RD11s has been tacked(spot welded on) to the side of the original subchassis.The design of the original sub chassis was quite symmetrical in its shape and its spring suspension points.The tacked on part of course throws out the symmetry,and probably the balance of the sub chassis,hence the two different rate suspension springs, and probably accounts for the extreme difficulty in setting the thing up.
Makes you wonder if the TT could have been that much better had a sub chassis been specifically designed for the RD11s.Makes you also wonder if the relatively pleasant music this TT produces is more by chance than by design.
Attachments
Re: Ariston RD11s dodgy design
Some good thoughts here, but I notice that some of the recent posts address concerns raised by the original thread starter 3 yrs ago rather than yours. Perhaps it would be better to just start a new thread rather than resurrecting a long expired one - just to avoid these sorts of issues? I'm quite interested, but don't have a lot to add at the moment.
I'm not really at all familiar with the Ariston table, but perhaps the motor ticking has to do with the bearings becoming mis-aligned over time or perhaps they are just worn... Other possibilities include foreign material stuck to the motor pulley. (if ticking is just with the belt on..) Perhaps the bearings just need to be lubricated. Ariston probably recommends a lubricant for the motor, if not one of several oils sold online for turntable lube ought to be ok. (Check google or ask here though before just doing this.)
I've heard the allegation before that the RD11 was bodged together from existing pieces, but I'm not sure what you could do to improve that situation, possibly you could fabricate your own subchassis using balsa or similar materials and the original Ariston main bearing. Using modern epoxy adhesives it might be possible to build something light and strong that works..
atavid said:
Some good thoughts here, but I notice that some of the recent posts address concerns raised by the original thread starter 3 yrs ago rather than yours. Perhaps it would be better to just start a new thread rather than resurrecting a long expired one - just to avoid these sorts of issues? I'm quite interested, but don't have a lot to add at the moment.
I'm not really at all familiar with the Ariston table, but perhaps the motor ticking has to do with the bearings becoming mis-aligned over time or perhaps they are just worn... Other possibilities include foreign material stuck to the motor pulley. (if ticking is just with the belt on..) Perhaps the bearings just need to be lubricated. Ariston probably recommends a lubricant for the motor, if not one of several oils sold online for turntable lube ought to be ok. (Check google or ask here though before just doing this.)
I've heard the allegation before that the RD11 was bodged together from existing pieces, but I'm not sure what you could do to improve that situation, possibly you could fabricate your own subchassis using balsa or similar materials and the original Ariston main bearing. Using modern epoxy adhesives it might be possible to build something light and strong that works..
Sorry,i didn't know if i should start a new thread or add to this one as i could only find one other thread discussing the Ariston RD11s.I thought folks interested in this TT might be following this thread.
It's somehow a little disappointing to think the TT was just a collection of previous models' parts,but that was probably a commercial reality .
I started looking into the cost of some lightweight carbon fibre after reading the other post i referred to,but we are talking serious dollars here in Australia for even a small 'sub chassis size' piece, plus more $$$ to machine it. An expensive experiment if it doesnt work.
I'm not sure what you mean by 'balsa'.I assume you are referring to some sort of sandwich material with balsa wood in its centre?
I'm wondering if just taking some weight off the existing subchassis would help.It is rather heavy, and the springs just hold up with the heavy Rega arm.
I havn't yet taken off the motor,but you are right,perhaps a little lubricant on each end will help there.My turntable was never used a lot even though i have had it for about 24 years,so i don't expect the bearings/bushes to be worn out.The noise is more 'electrical' than 'mechanical',so i dont know how successful lubrication will be,but its worth a try.
It's somehow a little disappointing to think the TT was just a collection of previous models' parts,but that was probably a commercial reality .
I started looking into the cost of some lightweight carbon fibre after reading the other post i referred to,but we are talking serious dollars here in Australia for even a small 'sub chassis size' piece, plus more $$$ to machine it. An expensive experiment if it doesnt work.
I'm not sure what you mean by 'balsa'.I assume you are referring to some sort of sandwich material with balsa wood in its centre?
I'm wondering if just taking some weight off the existing subchassis would help.It is rather heavy, and the springs just hold up with the heavy Rega arm.
I havn't yet taken off the motor,but you are right,perhaps a little lubricant on each end will help there.My turntable was never used a lot even though i have had it for about 24 years,so i don't expect the bearings/bushes to be worn out.The noise is more 'electrical' than 'mechanical',so i dont know how successful lubrication will be,but its worth a try.
Modifying RD11s
I've had more time to delve deeper into the RD11s and i notice that where that second piece of pressed steel is spot welded to the main subchassis there is a fair amount of flex between the two pieces.
That does not seem like a good thing to me so i have applied araldite at the edges trying to get it to run down and set between the two pieces and make it (hopefully) a little more rigid.
Another thing i notice is that the rubber grommets that isolate the motor from the top plate are not very soft or pliable.Should they be? Would it help if they were a softer compound?
Also the flat rubber gasket fitted between the motor and its mounting plate looks (from the visible edge at least) to be going brittle and hard with obvious cracks around the outside edge.
Should i look at perhaps replacing this gasket, again with something softer?
The whole plinth and top plate assembly is like a bell.One tap and it rings away quite badly.I notice Ariston have applied some sound deadener to the inside of the plinth,but it is very minimal and obviously ineffectual.I have some 'spray on' rubberised sound deadener and am going to mask up the underside of the top plate in key areas and spray both it and the inside of the plinth(fingers crossed).
Lastly i want to lubricate the motor bushes.The pulley end is easy enough to get at but the other end seems to be sealed with some kind of nylon device that appears to only be removable from inside the motor housing.Has anyone had experience with this?Is there some way of getting lubricant to that end bush?
I've had more time to delve deeper into the RD11s and i notice that where that second piece of pressed steel is spot welded to the main subchassis there is a fair amount of flex between the two pieces.
That does not seem like a good thing to me so i have applied araldite at the edges trying to get it to run down and set between the two pieces and make it (hopefully) a little more rigid.
Another thing i notice is that the rubber grommets that isolate the motor from the top plate are not very soft or pliable.Should they be? Would it help if they were a softer compound?
Also the flat rubber gasket fitted between the motor and its mounting plate looks (from the visible edge at least) to be going brittle and hard with obvious cracks around the outside edge.
Should i look at perhaps replacing this gasket, again with something softer?
The whole plinth and top plate assembly is like a bell.One tap and it rings away quite badly.I notice Ariston have applied some sound deadener to the inside of the plinth,but it is very minimal and obviously ineffectual.I have some 'spray on' rubberised sound deadener and am going to mask up the underside of the top plate in key areas and spray both it and the inside of the plinth(fingers crossed).
Lastly i want to lubricate the motor bushes.The pulley end is easy enough to get at but the other end seems to be sealed with some kind of nylon device that appears to only be removable from inside the motor housing.Has anyone had experience with this?Is there some way of getting lubricant to that end bush?
Thanks for the encouragement Kevin.I dont think anyone else is still following this thread.
I will let you know how i progress.
I'm going out this morning to see if i can find some softer grommets.
The araldite between the plates has set now, and it has eliminated the flex.Still havnt had the guts to spray the underside of the top plate,but i guess i will do that later today.
By the way my first name is Kevin too !
I will let you know how i progress.
I'm going out this morning to see if i can find some softer grommets.
The araldite between the plates has set now, and it has eliminated the flex.Still havnt had the guts to spray the underside of the top plate,but i guess i will do that later today.
By the way my first name is Kevin too !
Hi Kevin,
I'll be very interested to hear how the performance of this table is improved by all of your tweaks. I pursued a very similar course with several old AR-XA tables I had when I first got interested in DIY, and the results were quite gratifying - which is what I think you will find with these changes as well.
It wouldn't surprise me if those grommets hadn't hardened up due to age. CD player mechanisms use them too so there should be a good variety out there if you can find a source. Here McMaster Carr stocks them, but unfortunately I don't think they ship overseas anymore.
I'll be very interested to hear how the performance of this table is improved by all of your tweaks. I pursued a very similar course with several old AR-XA tables I had when I first got interested in DIY, and the results were quite gratifying - which is what I think you will find with these changes as well.
It wouldn't surprise me if those grommets hadn't hardened up due to age. CD player mechanisms use them too so there should be a good variety out there if you can find a source. Here McMaster Carr stocks them, but unfortunately I don't think they ship overseas anymore.
Kevin, I've nearly done as much as i can do to the TT now.Its looking good!Hope its going to sound even better.So far i've done the following:
Replaced all nuts bolts and screws with Stainless steel variety.(Couldnt get full length threaded bolts in High Tensile)
Made a new bottom cross bracing plate out of 8mm brass instead of the flimsly thin tin original unit. Gives the whole top plate a more solid feel when its bolted down to it now.Again dont know if it will help or just look good! Polished up beautifully too.
Sprayed the whole underside of the top plate and the inside of the plinth with a rubber compound after adding some more bracing to sides.Much more inert now.
On the subchassis i have removed the two 'welded on' surplus nuts(left overs from some previous incarnation of the subchassis.
I have epoxy glued the two sections together,and put a bead of epoxy around the joint of the main bearing to the subchassis.
I've put tight fitting plastic tubing over the long spring bolts and lubricated the spring rubber washers with silicone to allow easy rotation and adjustment when setting up the suspension.
I checked how flat the armboard mounting section was(not very) and then sanded it down on glass to get it flat and smooth.Then did the same thing to the armboard itself.(its circular on the RD11S)
While i was at it i shaved a little metal off the side of the subchassis where it almost touches the underside of the top plate hold down bracket.I remember when setting up the suspension in the past it would be too close for comfort when i had the armboard centered. A good 3-4mm clearance now
I've then given the whole subchassis a couple of fresh coats of the original style wrinkle finish paint to help dampen it. Works well too!
After much searching i found some nice soft rubber grommets for the motor mounts.They work well,but i've modified them a little so they stick up proud of the internal female screw receptors (thingys) so there is more pressure exerted on the grommets and top plate when the motor screws are tightened up.The motor shaft now sits a little off vertical until the belt is fitted and turning the platter,then it is enough to just pull it into the vertical position.
I've cleaned out my main bearing which had solidified dried up gunk in it, and now spins nicely.Only put sewing machine oil in it at this stage but will try heavier stuff later.
I managed to lubricate the motor bushes and it runs almost completely silent now.No more 'woop woop' noise as it spins.
I pulled apart the motor clutch mechanism and cleaned and relubricated the felt washer and other bits.Also got all the talc powder residue out of the pulley grooves.
One of the last things i want to do is fit some sort of rubber band around the motor,just to dampen it a little more.Have to see what i can find around town for that one,unless anyone has some suggestions .
The suspension is set up just roughly at the moment as i am going to fashion up a jig to allow me make all the adjustments while the table is sitting flat.I've spun the whole table up and it is running really smoothly and as quiet as i can ever remember. Now i'm just deciding if i will get the RB300 rewired with Cardas cable(bloody expensive over here) or the Van Den Hul rewire kit. I've also ordered an adjustable VTA unit for the RB300 too.But i think i will refit the arm and listen without the rewire first so i can ascertain what differences my mods have made.
I have one question though, ...having read the article on setting up the Linn suspension,(remember the Aristons' is almost identical) i am puzzled about one thing.While i think i understand what they mean by each spring has a spine when compressed,i want to know by what means can i tell where the spine is. I set them up originally so that the ends of the springs all face towards the centre bearing,but that is going to have to change to get the armboard dead centre and bouncing correctly.How can i identify the spines and where should they face,in or out?My guess is that the spines are the sides of the springs that bow out when compressed,but i'll wait to hear anybody else's opinion on that. Well thats it so far. I cant wait to play some vinyl on it.
Replaced all nuts bolts and screws with Stainless steel variety.(Couldnt get full length threaded bolts in High Tensile)
Made a new bottom cross bracing plate out of 8mm brass instead of the flimsly thin tin original unit. Gives the whole top plate a more solid feel when its bolted down to it now.Again dont know if it will help or just look good! Polished up beautifully too.
Sprayed the whole underside of the top plate and the inside of the plinth with a rubber compound after adding some more bracing to sides.Much more inert now.
On the subchassis i have removed the two 'welded on' surplus nuts(left overs from some previous incarnation of the subchassis.
I have epoxy glued the two sections together,and put a bead of epoxy around the joint of the main bearing to the subchassis.
I've put tight fitting plastic tubing over the long spring bolts and lubricated the spring rubber washers with silicone to allow easy rotation and adjustment when setting up the suspension.
I checked how flat the armboard mounting section was(not very) and then sanded it down on glass to get it flat and smooth.Then did the same thing to the armboard itself.(its circular on the RD11S)
While i was at it i shaved a little metal off the side of the subchassis where it almost touches the underside of the top plate hold down bracket.I remember when setting up the suspension in the past it would be too close for comfort when i had the armboard centered. A good 3-4mm clearance now
I've then given the whole subchassis a couple of fresh coats of the original style wrinkle finish paint to help dampen it. Works well too!
After much searching i found some nice soft rubber grommets for the motor mounts.They work well,but i've modified them a little so they stick up proud of the internal female screw receptors (thingys) so there is more pressure exerted on the grommets and top plate when the motor screws are tightened up.The motor shaft now sits a little off vertical until the belt is fitted and turning the platter,then it is enough to just pull it into the vertical position.
I've cleaned out my main bearing which had solidified dried up gunk in it, and now spins nicely.Only put sewing machine oil in it at this stage but will try heavier stuff later.
I managed to lubricate the motor bushes and it runs almost completely silent now.No more 'woop woop' noise as it spins.
I pulled apart the motor clutch mechanism and cleaned and relubricated the felt washer and other bits.Also got all the talc powder residue out of the pulley grooves.
One of the last things i want to do is fit some sort of rubber band around the motor,just to dampen it a little more.Have to see what i can find around town for that one,unless anyone has some suggestions .
The suspension is set up just roughly at the moment as i am going to fashion up a jig to allow me make all the adjustments while the table is sitting flat.I've spun the whole table up and it is running really smoothly and as quiet as i can ever remember. Now i'm just deciding if i will get the RB300 rewired with Cardas cable(bloody expensive over here) or the Van Den Hul rewire kit. I've also ordered an adjustable VTA unit for the RB300 too.But i think i will refit the arm and listen without the rewire first so i can ascertain what differences my mods have made.
I have one question though, ...having read the article on setting up the Linn suspension,(remember the Aristons' is almost identical) i am puzzled about one thing.While i think i understand what they mean by each spring has a spine when compressed,i want to know by what means can i tell where the spine is. I set them up originally so that the ends of the springs all face towards the centre bearing,but that is going to have to change to get the armboard dead centre and bouncing correctly.How can i identify the spines and where should they face,in or out?My guess is that the spines are the sides of the springs that bow out when compressed,but i'll wait to hear anybody else's opinion on that. Well thats it so far. I cant wait to play some vinyl on it.
Can't wait to hear what your impressions of your heavily tweaked table are. I suspect the improvements won't be subtle at all, and like I with certain components you will end up wondering how you lived with it for so long..
I would wait to change the RB300 wiring until after you are familiar with the improvements wrought by all the other changes. IME the arm rewire is the least profitable mod for the money you can make. I have never been able to convince myself that the changes were sufficiently audible (in some cases not at all) to justify the often prohibitive cost. The lead out cables are another matter though as are the cartridge clips themselves - improvements here can be very audible particularly if the connectors and clips are on the cheesy or well worn/oxidized end of the spectrum.
I would wait to change the RB300 wiring until after you are familiar with the improvements wrought by all the other changes. IME the arm rewire is the least profitable mod for the money you can make. I have never been able to convince myself that the changes were sufficiently audible (in some cases not at all) to justify the often prohibitive cost. The lead out cables are another matter though as are the cartridge clips themselves - improvements here can be very audible particularly if the connectors and clips are on the cheesy or well worn/oxidized end of the spectrum.
Damn,it was all going so well.I managed to find some very soft foam type stretchy rubber which i made into bands.One to wrap around the drive motor, and one to go around the top of the inner platter(belt still clears it ok).This really killed any ringing in the entire platter assembly.
So then i went and made myself a nice little set up jig to allow me to adjust the suspension while it was all set up level (and running if necessary).Great i thought,...on the home run now.
Thats when i realized that the old suspension springs were not up to the job of holding everything up at the correct height.
Age, plus the additional weight of the new paint on the subchassis,the epoxy glue , the rubber band around the platter(and lower part of bearing housing),the Rega arm with its gold plated tungsten counterweight and other bits, all added up to just too much weight gain for those 25 year old springs.
I think the only option i have is to source some Linn springs.Trouble is my TT was fitted with two optional heavy springs originally to cope with the weighty Rega RB300.
From what i have seen Linn only supply a set of standard (soft i assume) springs,so i dont know if they are going to be stiff enough. The big locking nut on the Rega is solid steel.I wonder if i could get it lightened,or get an alloy one made up.That would shave quite a bit of weight off the tonearm assembly.uumm?
Well the project is on the backburner again while i sus this problem out.This could be a real PITA.
So then i went and made myself a nice little set up jig to allow me to adjust the suspension while it was all set up level (and running if necessary).Great i thought,...on the home run now.
Thats when i realized that the old suspension springs were not up to the job of holding everything up at the correct height.
Age, plus the additional weight of the new paint on the subchassis,the epoxy glue , the rubber band around the platter(and lower part of bearing housing),the Rega arm with its gold plated tungsten counterweight and other bits, all added up to just too much weight gain for those 25 year old springs.
I think the only option i have is to source some Linn springs.Trouble is my TT was fitted with two optional heavy springs originally to cope with the weighty Rega RB300.
From what i have seen Linn only supply a set of standard (soft i assume) springs,so i dont know if they are going to be stiff enough. The big locking nut on the Rega is solid steel.I wonder if i could get it lightened,or get an alloy one made up.That would shave quite a bit of weight off the tonearm assembly.uumm?
Well the project is on the backburner again while i sus this problem out.This could be a real PITA.
Thanks for splitting this thread up on its own Moderator.I'm sorry,i didnt mean to hijack the thread.
Sreten,i assume you mean by 'helper spring' ,a smaller diameter spring that will fit inside the original tapered spring.This is a good idea,but i have some concern about if or how it will affect the sound of the deck.
Also not sure how i could centre it, and not have it interfere with the outside spring. Do you have something specific in mind?
Sreten,i assume you mean by 'helper spring' ,a smaller diameter spring that will fit inside the original tapered spring.This is a good idea,but i have some concern about if or how it will affect the sound of the deck.
Also not sure how i could centre it, and not have it interfere with the outside spring. Do you have something specific in mind?
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