Hi All:
I have a Grace 707 tonearm that works very well except for its lift. Instead of the proper smooth action up and the delightfully slow drop of the stylus to the record, this one drops like a stone!
I have disassembeled the little gizmo and it all seems to be there. If I put a couple of drops of oil in it, by the time I replace the cap peice I have oil on my fingers and it still does not move slowly and smoothly, but just as abruptly as before.
Can anyone tell me how to fix this? Please? Pretty-please???
Jess
I have a Grace 707 tonearm that works very well except for its lift. Instead of the proper smooth action up and the delightfully slow drop of the stylus to the record, this one drops like a stone!
I have disassembeled the little gizmo and it all seems to be there. If I put a couple of drops of oil in it, by the time I replace the cap peice I have oil on my fingers and it still does not move slowly and smoothly, but just as abruptly as before.
Can anyone tell me how to fix this? Please? Pretty-please???
Jess
Grace...
Hi Jess
I use a Grace arm (Gyromaster) on on of my turntables and had exactly the same problem. I also opened the cylinder carefully and tried 3 different viscosity silicone oils. Also ending up with more oil on my fingers and the results, when it stopped oozing - were pretty disappointing.
I have machine tools in my workshop and in the end, I took the armrest plate off the arm (mine is black anodised). I found a lift from an old Jelco arm which was styled similarly, but 1mm wider in diameter and decided to re-mill the mounting hole larger, to fit the replacement lift. I carefully wrapped the mounting plate in a few winds of cloth and masking tape to protect it as it had to be held firmly in my milling vice.
I first put a cutter of the same dia as the old hole in the chuck and carefully positioned the cutter to go down dead centre with the hole. The final step was to very carefully re-mill the hole wide by 1mm to fit the new lift. All worked out OK and no-one will know the difference.
Hope this helps.
bulgin
Hi Jess
I use a Grace arm (Gyromaster) on on of my turntables and had exactly the same problem. I also opened the cylinder carefully and tried 3 different viscosity silicone oils. Also ending up with more oil on my fingers and the results, when it stopped oozing - were pretty disappointing.
I have machine tools in my workshop and in the end, I took the armrest plate off the arm (mine is black anodised). I found a lift from an old Jelco arm which was styled similarly, but 1mm wider in diameter and decided to re-mill the mounting hole larger, to fit the replacement lift. I carefully wrapped the mounting plate in a few winds of cloth and masking tape to protect it as it had to be held firmly in my milling vice.
I first put a cutter of the same dia as the old hole in the chuck and carefully positioned the cutter to go down dead centre with the hole. The final step was to very carefully re-mill the hole wide by 1mm to fit the new lift. All worked out OK and no-one will know the difference.
Hope this helps.
bulgin
Hi bulgin
I am certainly impressed with your ability to machine a solution to the problem. And, it is nice to know that this is not a unique problem. I regret that I have no machine tools (nor old Jelco arm parts) to clone your solution.'
I cant help thinking that the oil leaking out is because some kind of seal (rubber o-ring?) has disintegrated and this is why the lift will not hold oil and therefore why it does not work properly.
Try as I might I cannot find any design or service drawings anywhere on the web.
Oh, well - just have to keep looking.
Jess
I am certainly impressed with your ability to machine a solution to the problem. And, it is nice to know that this is not a unique problem. I regret that I have no machine tools (nor old Jelco arm parts) to clone your solution.'
I cant help thinking that the oil leaking out is because some kind of seal (rubber o-ring?) has disintegrated and this is why the lift will not hold oil and therefore why it does not work properly.
Try as I might I cannot find any design or service drawings anywhere on the web.
Oh, well - just have to keep looking.
Jess
Grace 707...
Hi Jesse
As far as I remember, I found no O-ring in the old Grace lift. It had a black plastic plug at the bottom, keeping the oil inside. The oil which had the best result was that from an sme damping kit. It replicated the same rate of descent as my other lifts. I'm sure if I turned a new plastic plug to replace the old one, this would have stopped the oozing.
I guess I got impatient and had to find a quick fix and decided to use another lift. I wonder if places stocking and repairing dj decks will not have a wrecked arm and lift for you. As you probably know, the lift cylinders are fixed in place with a grubscrew or two. With a little luck, you may find a lift of similar diameter. The mounting plate for these lifts are also fixed to my Grace arm with a grubscrew. Once this plate is off the arm, it may be possible to carefully adjust the mounting hole with a halfround file.
I'm too dumb to post pics here but if you send me a mail to listen@blueangelaudio.com, I'll send you a few pics of how the Grace looks now with the new lift.
Cheers. Hope you come right.
bulgin
Hi Jesse
As far as I remember, I found no O-ring in the old Grace lift. It had a black plastic plug at the bottom, keeping the oil inside. The oil which had the best result was that from an sme damping kit. It replicated the same rate of descent as my other lifts. I'm sure if I turned a new plastic plug to replace the old one, this would have stopped the oozing.
I guess I got impatient and had to find a quick fix and decided to use another lift. I wonder if places stocking and repairing dj decks will not have a wrecked arm and lift for you. As you probably know, the lift cylinders are fixed in place with a grubscrew or two. With a little luck, you may find a lift of similar diameter. The mounting plate for these lifts are also fixed to my Grace arm with a grubscrew. Once this plate is off the arm, it may be possible to carefully adjust the mounting hole with a halfround file.
I'm too dumb to post pics here but if you send me a mail to listen@blueangelaudio.com, I'll send you a few pics of how the Grace looks now with the new lift.
Cheers. Hope you come right.
bulgin
Jesse... think about this one
I have a solenoid actuated "lift", and when it actuates, it rifles down (and up too)!. Bad enough I don't use the turntable!--and I don't.
I have to disable the "lift" and manually move the arm by hand. I think I'll have to make some kind of lift or make a magnetic lift for the end of the record.
I have a solenoid actuated "lift", and when it actuates, it rifles down (and up too)!. Bad enough I don't use the turntable!--and I don't.
I have to disable the "lift" and manually move the arm by hand. I think I'll have to make some kind of lift or make a magnetic lift for the end of the record.
Hi bulgin
Thanks - yes, I don't remember an o-ring either, but I did watch where the oil oozes out from, and it seems to be coming from the inside end of the rotating cam shaft (opposite the lift lever). That's what got me thinking that maybe some kind of seal was gone missin'...
I will probably start looking for an alternate lift, but since these Grace arms are prime 'vintage' gear, I kind'a hate to start modding it too much. Once I start, who knows where it will stop...
Hi Nanook
That sounds scary! Like you, I currently ignore the lift when it is time to place the stylus. It still works OK to lift it off the record.
There's just something about super-simple devices that really bugs me when I can't make them work. Know what I mean?
Jess
Grace 707 Tone Arm
I have a Grace 707 fitted to a Regar Planar 3. The damping mechanism has also failed but the lift arm still works fine which is what I use for cueing by controlling the rate of ascent/descent manually.
I regretefully broke this myself simply by attempting to adjust the angle of the top curved resting pad. All I did was loosen the top screw half a turn and re-tighten it. and ... bugger !. Dont anybody else try this, you'll regret it.
there was some oil leakage but very minimal and since then I've not been able to repair it.
An audiophile shop assistant thought it may improve through a cooling of the air temperature (decreasing viscosity). ... No it doesnt.
I have a Grace 707 fitted to a Regar Planar 3. The damping mechanism has also failed but the lift arm still works fine which is what I use for cueing by controlling the rate of ascent/descent manually.
I regretefully broke this myself simply by attempting to adjust the angle of the top curved resting pad. All I did was loosen the top screw half a turn and re-tighten it. and ... bugger !. Dont anybody else try this, you'll regret it.
there was some oil leakage but very minimal and since then I've not been able to repair it.
An audiophile shop assistant thought it may improve through a cooling of the air temperature (decreasing viscosity). ... No it doesnt.
I've had the opportunity to obtain a wee bit of original Grace G-704 arm lift damping grease, which the owner said came part & parcel of that arm.
Its consistency is thick and gooey like tar, (somewhere 300,000cST?). I achieved satisfaction with the supplied Grace grease to repair the arm lift on a budget 80's Japanese tonearm lift mechanism. I had earlier used silicon fluid also meant for tonearm lift but it didn't work, dropping like a stone. The Grace grease worked a charm, the arm dropping to the record gently to my satisfaction, gentler than my own Rega RB300 and Rega P3 TT.
I'm now believing, a thick gooey grease consistency is required for Rega tonearms ( I'm thinking what Rega is using is still not good enough as the arm still drops a little too fast) and suitable for many Japanese tonearm lifts.
A search revealed that Dow Corning have may have the suitable grease products for arm lifts or damping and comes in various consistency. Rega use a British made product called Kilopoise...not readily obtainable on the open market.
Its consistency is thick and gooey like tar, (somewhere 300,000cST?). I achieved satisfaction with the supplied Grace grease to repair the arm lift on a budget 80's Japanese tonearm lift mechanism. I had earlier used silicon fluid also meant for tonearm lift but it didn't work, dropping like a stone. The Grace grease worked a charm, the arm dropping to the record gently to my satisfaction, gentler than my own Rega RB300 and Rega P3 TT.
I'm now believing, a thick gooey grease consistency is required for Rega tonearms ( I'm thinking what Rega is using is still not good enough as the arm still drops a little too fast) and suitable for many Japanese tonearm lifts.
A search revealed that Dow Corning have may have the suitable grease products for arm lifts or damping and comes in various consistency. Rega use a British made product called Kilopoise...not readily obtainable on the open market.
Thanks Coolmaster! I think this is the info I needed: I have been using various oils (silicon, mineral, olive
) with the same result - it dropped like a stone.There are many forms of grease with the consistency of tar - gear grease being one. Since I have had mine apart so many times, I am going to try it with gear grease. If this gives the right sort of response, then hunt down some of the proper stuff from Rega or wohever.
Thanks again
Jess
Just a thought, simonl8353:
Some time ago I found myself in the same position with a cueing lift - I lost the screw. I tried many sources (eyeglasses, watches, etc.) but could not find anything that would work.
In a fit of frustration, I tried a drop of crazy glue. Make sure you know how the rest is to be aligned with the body of the lift. Extend the lift rod to it's extreme, put a small drop of CG on the end of the rest arm around the hole and hold it in place on the end of the shaft for the requisite 30 seconds. Then let it sit for about 5 minutes before handling it.
This strategy worked for me and the arm (a Grace 714) is still happily in service.
For what it's worth
Jess
JesseG said:
Jess: I think its futile to use any automotive grease for lifter damping. I believe this silicone grease product is much thicker and suited for damping than the grease you intend to use, even that automotive additive STP viscosity thickener would not work to your satisfaction. You'd have to de-grease and ensure a surgically clean mechanism entirely. You'd only need less than a gram, drop (sorry if I'm unsure of describing the measure) of it to re-lube.
This is the data sheet of the Dow Corning product that points to suitablility.
http://www.polysi.com/dow corning m...DS Sheets/DC FLUIDS MSDS/DC 200 300000cst.pdf
They have an even thicker one of 600,000cST.
Have you consulted them?
http://www.turntablebasics.com/silicone.html
Thanks, coolmaster:
when I said gear grease I was thinking of some silicone-base stuff I have for my modeler's lathe. However, you have a good point, and since suitable grease is readily available form your link or TheNeedleDoctor or a number of others, I will exercise patience and order some
Jess
when I said gear grease I was thinking of some silicone-base stuff I have for my modeler's lathe. However, you have a good point, and since suitable grease is readily available form your link or TheNeedleDoctor or a number of others, I will exercise patience and order some
Jess
I did my own research and have come to this.
Rocol Kilopoise viscosity = 220,000cp (stated in datasheet)
This is the one Rega uses for all its arm lifter mechanism. IMHO, that product serves the purpose but I do not agree of its performance which still drops a little too fast for my liking. I would have liked it much slower and gentler like in some vintage Thorens or Japanese decks.
The 300,000cSt product, turntablebasics.com sells is very likely and most suitable to Grace or Rega (as a better lube alternative) arm lifter.
If anyone has tried this product, do feedback your results.
Rocol Kilopoise viscosity = 220,000cp (stated in datasheet)
This is the one Rega uses for all its arm lifter mechanism. IMHO, that product serves the purpose but I do not agree of its performance which still drops a little too fast for my liking. I would have liked it much slower and gentler like in some vintage Thorens or Japanese decks.
The 300,000cSt product, turntablebasics.com sells is very likely and most suitable to Grace or Rega (as a better lube alternative) arm lifter.
If anyone has tried this product, do feedback your results.
Grace 707 tone arm damper fix
Confirmed fix.
Thanks Coolmaster, your suggestion with the 300cst silicon works 100%. I ordered a tube US$10 (I think) from Turntable Basics and completed the fix last night. see http://www.turntablebasics.com/silicone.html for the product.
Here is the repair in detail;
1. Cover the Cartridge Needle to protect. (I used the original stylus cover)
2. Remove Arm Rest top screw and remove Arm Rest. (curved piece)
3. Loosen Piston Clamp screw
4. Loosen Arm Lock Screw (on side of main Tone Arm shaft) to allow whole Tone Arm Assembly to rise up sufficiently to drop the complete Piston Assembly out the bottom of the Piston Clamp.
5. With the Piston Assembly removed, using a sharp blade prise off the black plastic Base Disc (take care, slight damage to the edge of the plastic is likely).
6. Look inside the Piston Cylinder and remove the small bronze Grub Screw located on the Lever Arm shaft (only takes approx 1 turn).
7. Remove the Lever Arm screw located on the opposite side to the Lever Arm.
8. Carefully, holding the Piston Shaft in the "raised" position, remove the Lever Arm.
9. Allow the Piston to "spring" back down and slide it out the bottom along with the Return Spring.
10. All components to now be throughtly cleaned, I did not have any rubbing alcohol so used mineral turpentine.
11. Thoroughly dry all components.
12. Assemble Return Spring back on to Piston Shaft.
13. Coat only the bronze Piston sides with the 300cst silicon, ensure the bronze Piston grooves are full. I used a small piece of cardboard as an applicator to build a very thin layer over the Piston sides. (do not cover the top or bottom of the piston)
14. Carefully slide the Piston (with the Return Spring) back into the Cylinder.
15. Hold Piston in the "raised" position (with a cotton bud) and re-fit the Lever Arm and Lever Arm screw.
16. Rotate the Piston to align the Piston "dog" with the Lever Arm cam.
17. Test assembly for smooth action.
18. Re-fit small bronze Grub Screw (this controls over rotation of the Lever Arm when in the "raised" position).
19. Re-fit black plastic Base Disc.
20. Re-fit Piston Assembly into Piston Clamp on Tone Arm body (do not tighten clamp yet).
21. Re-fit the curved Arm Rest (note this must align with square sides on Piston Shaft) and tighten Arm Rest top screw to secure.
22. Adjust Tone Arm height and tighten Arm Lock screw.
23. Adjust and secure Piston Assembly in desired position using the Piston Clamp screw.
24. Done.
My first attempt took approx 2 hrs. I had never dissassembled one of these before. I added too much of the silicon and coated everything inside the Cylinder as well. It worked but irratically, sometimes taking 2 minutes to drop, sometimes 5 seconds. I believe having too much silicon created an air-lock above and below the Piston which also caused some weeping of the silicon out through the Lever Arm screw.
My second attempt took 30 mins and the result was perfect function. Needless to say, the instructions above are from my second attempt. No weeping anywhere. Perfect repetition of dropping action. Cartridge takes approx 3 full seconds to drop.
See attached photo of disassembled parts.
Hope this helps.
Thanks again to Coolmaster for the tip on what type and where to get the silicon.
For info, I also spoke to Dow Corning who could only get me a 500ml tin of their product and never rang me back with availabliity or price.
Confirmed fix.
Thanks Coolmaster, your suggestion with the 300cst silicon works 100%. I ordered a tube US$10 (I think) from Turntable Basics and completed the fix last night. see http://www.turntablebasics.com/silicone.html for the product.
Here is the repair in detail;
1. Cover the Cartridge Needle to protect. (I used the original stylus cover)
2. Remove Arm Rest top screw and remove Arm Rest. (curved piece)
3. Loosen Piston Clamp screw
4. Loosen Arm Lock Screw (on side of main Tone Arm shaft) to allow whole Tone Arm Assembly to rise up sufficiently to drop the complete Piston Assembly out the bottom of the Piston Clamp.
5. With the Piston Assembly removed, using a sharp blade prise off the black plastic Base Disc (take care, slight damage to the edge of the plastic is likely).
6. Look inside the Piston Cylinder and remove the small bronze Grub Screw located on the Lever Arm shaft (only takes approx 1 turn).
7. Remove the Lever Arm screw located on the opposite side to the Lever Arm.
8. Carefully, holding the Piston Shaft in the "raised" position, remove the Lever Arm.
9. Allow the Piston to "spring" back down and slide it out the bottom along with the Return Spring.
10. All components to now be throughtly cleaned, I did not have any rubbing alcohol so used mineral turpentine.
11. Thoroughly dry all components.
12. Assemble Return Spring back on to Piston Shaft.
13. Coat only the bronze Piston sides with the 300cst silicon, ensure the bronze Piston grooves are full. I used a small piece of cardboard as an applicator to build a very thin layer over the Piston sides. (do not cover the top or bottom of the piston)
14. Carefully slide the Piston (with the Return Spring) back into the Cylinder.
15. Hold Piston in the "raised" position (with a cotton bud) and re-fit the Lever Arm and Lever Arm screw.
16. Rotate the Piston to align the Piston "dog" with the Lever Arm cam.
17. Test assembly for smooth action.
18. Re-fit small bronze Grub Screw (this controls over rotation of the Lever Arm when in the "raised" position).
19. Re-fit black plastic Base Disc.
20. Re-fit Piston Assembly into Piston Clamp on Tone Arm body (do not tighten clamp yet).
21. Re-fit the curved Arm Rest (note this must align with square sides on Piston Shaft) and tighten Arm Rest top screw to secure.
22. Adjust Tone Arm height and tighten Arm Lock screw.
23. Adjust and secure Piston Assembly in desired position using the Piston Clamp screw.
24. Done.
My first attempt took approx 2 hrs. I had never dissassembled one of these before. I added too much of the silicon and coated everything inside the Cylinder as well. It worked but irratically, sometimes taking 2 minutes to drop, sometimes 5 seconds. I believe having too much silicon created an air-lock above and below the Piston which also caused some weeping of the silicon out through the Lever Arm screw.
My second attempt took 30 mins and the result was perfect function. Needless to say, the instructions above are from my second attempt. No weeping anywhere. Perfect repetition of dropping action. Cartridge takes approx 3 full seconds to drop.
See attached photo of disassembled parts.
Hope this helps.
Thanks again to Coolmaster for the tip on what type and where to get the silicon.
For info, I also spoke to Dow Corning who could only get me a 500ml tin of their product and never rang me back with availabliity or price.
Attachments
simonl8353: Great to hear you've achieved something there.
I took the plunge and an hour's work to dismantle my Rega RB300 arm lift mechanism. Its so easy!.
1. Remove the arm completely off the plinth. (very important and neccessary)
2. Remove the allen lockbolt at the arm rest and remove the arm rest. Careful NOT to loose the allen bolt.
3. Remove the visible spring from the piston and plastic cap at bottom.
4. Using an appropriate fit needle nose pliers, unscrew very carefully the top cap till it comes off, ensuring the tool does not scratch the cap finish.
5. Withdraw the whole assembly from the bottom side.
6. Remove the piston from the cylinder bore and withdraw arm lift handle, TAKING NOTE of the hole side which the handle was withdrawn. There's NO plastic or rubber parts in the mechanism.
After degreasing, I used a camera lens hand blower to blow away any dust or debris.
7. Relube the piston carefully, packing the middle groove and the piston cam sufficiently.
8. A touch of lube on the handle cam where it contacts the cylinder bore, and refit the piston down the bore with the handle cam in correct position. Ensure smooth and correct operation before refitting back to the arm.
9. Re-install the arm lift assembly from the bottom and lock the top cap, tightening it just sufficiently with the needle nose pliers.
OK, the lube I used is 100,000cSt silicone fluid. It works but still not to expectation.The original Kilopoise was probably tackier but IMHO, not good enough but serves the purpose. Kilopoise is a pig to remove and not with spirit I had thought effective to do the job. I had to use some paint thinner to clean up the stuff.
I'll obtain the 300,000cSt later and re-lube it again.
I've never dismantled a Rega lift before. I did notice the lever is somewhat silky smoother now, perhaps due to a thinner viscosity. Meanwhile, I control the decent manually. I've certainly gained some experience here.
I took the plunge and an hour's work to dismantle my Rega RB300 arm lift mechanism. Its so easy!.
1. Remove the arm completely off the plinth. (very important and neccessary)
2. Remove the allen lockbolt at the arm rest and remove the arm rest. Careful NOT to loose the allen bolt.
3. Remove the visible spring from the piston and plastic cap at bottom.
4. Using an appropriate fit needle nose pliers, unscrew very carefully the top cap till it comes off, ensuring the tool does not scratch the cap finish.
5. Withdraw the whole assembly from the bottom side.
6. Remove the piston from the cylinder bore and withdraw arm lift handle, TAKING NOTE of the hole side which the handle was withdrawn. There's NO plastic or rubber parts in the mechanism.
After degreasing, I used a camera lens hand blower to blow away any dust or debris.
7. Relube the piston carefully, packing the middle groove and the piston cam sufficiently.
8. A touch of lube on the handle cam where it contacts the cylinder bore, and refit the piston down the bore with the handle cam in correct position. Ensure smooth and correct operation before refitting back to the arm.
9. Re-install the arm lift assembly from the bottom and lock the top cap, tightening it just sufficiently with the needle nose pliers.
OK, the lube I used is 100,000cSt silicone fluid. It works but still not to expectation.The original Kilopoise was probably tackier but IMHO, not good enough but serves the purpose. Kilopoise is a pig to remove and not with spirit I had thought effective to do the job. I had to use some paint thinner to clean up the stuff.
I'll obtain the 300,000cSt later and re-lube it again.
I've never dismantled a Rega lift before. I did notice the lever is somewhat silky smoother now, perhaps due to a thinner viscosity. Meanwhile, I control the decent manually. I've certainly gained some experience here.
So there are now two tonearm damper fixes posted here, the RB300 and Grace 707. This thread should be a good reference source for others.
For US$10 its worth getting the 300cst goop from Turntable Basics. Postage is US$4 Domestic First Class or the same for Airmail to Australia, all up IMHO a small price to pay for the passion of having the equipment work perfectly.
ATB
For US$10 its worth getting the 300cst goop from Turntable Basics. Postage is US$4 Domestic First Class or the same for Airmail to Australia, all up IMHO a small price to pay for the passion of having the equipment work perfectly.
ATB
Gents,
I thought I would add that have repaired many lifts, and the above instructions are essentially the same as the steps I have taken. The only distinct difference is that I use 600,000cSt oil. The amount applied may affect the outcome, but the heavier also works nicely. In the case of the Audio-Technica at6006a end lifter, the heavier was necessary to get the mechanism going again. (I tried thinner oil, but it did not work.)
By the way, I keep a selection of thicknesses around because it is good for a variety of repairs, and sometimes blends are desirable. That being the case, I would suggest buying both the 300,000cSt and the 600,000cSt oils.
Regards,
mosin
I thought I would add that have repaired many lifts, and the above instructions are essentially the same as the steps I have taken. The only distinct difference is that I use 600,000cSt oil. The amount applied may affect the outcome, but the heavier also works nicely. In the case of the Audio-Technica at6006a end lifter, the heavier was necessary to get the mechanism going again. (I tried thinner oil, but it did not work.)
By the way, I keep a selection of thicknesses around because it is good for a variety of repairs, and sometimes blends are desirable. That being the case, I would suggest buying both the 300,000cSt and the 600,000cSt oils.
Regards,
mosin
mosin said:
I reckon arm manufacturers all have their own concoction, trouble is they don't disclose any specs, perhaps its deemed as something the user shouldn't dabble with till end of life.
I agree with you having different viscosities in hand and one can mix them up to form own concoction to one's satisfaction. I'm beginning to believe most arm lifts would require at least 200,000cST or thicker which is already a state of "thick gooey paste"?
Thanks to the internet, we're able to share info and experiences.
Good day gentlemen!.
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.