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Old 3rd May 2007, 02:17 PM   #41
SY is offline SY  United States
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Because, frankly, I don't believe the large 2.7dB level difference quoted in the initial post.
I do. Not because of the gluing, though, but rather the simple act of pulling the stylus and putting it back in.
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Old 4th May 2007, 12:50 PM   #42
gpapag is offline gpapag  Greece
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Default "Don't let me be misunderstood" (a'm nothing but an animal)

Quote:
I do. Not because of the gluing, though, but rather the simple act of pulling the stylus and putting it back in.
Now, that was a good blow.
After half an hour been lying down half unconscious, I called my lawyer and he told me there is little I can do to defend my case in the court. It might be beneficial though if I could formulate a text listing my strong and weak points. So, I thought of the following:

Fact 1: I have removed the stylus assy 2-3 times and put it back- in from the time of purchase till the glue application.

Fact 2: I have pictures taken just before the glue application showing good fit of the stylus assy.

Hypothesis 1: SYís reasoning is based upon his experience from analogous cases.

Fact 3: I have no statistical or theoretical proof to provide for to reject SYís reasoning.

Statement 1: Therefore SYís reasoning remains a logical possibility-thus valid- until any opposing proof is presented.

Fact 4: All the information and data that I have provided so far are the outcome of my experimental set-up, based on my experimental methods working on the specific piece of the cartridge I own. Indeed I have not as yet communicated in this forum the complete list of equipment, nor reported with adequate details the methodology of the experimental work, on the basis that this work is still in progress and under the initial thought that some participants of the forum may find it somehow an interesting subject.

Statement 2: My involvement in this experiment is based on my desire to expand my knowledge into the technical aspects of audio reproduction, triggered by otherís information and my own curiosity. Having not enough means (knowledge and capability) to design and manufacture an equipment from the start, I have opted to modify a product that was under my disposal.

Statement 3: I understand and fully respect the fact that said product is designed by competend engineers and manufactured as a mass product.

Statement 4: I do not imply in any ways that the particular cartridge under modification is neither worse nor better than any other cartridge (also any otherís cartridge). This, applies equally to the pre-mod as well as to the after mod condition of my cartridge.

Statement 5: I have no intention to convince anyone for the validity of my results.

Fact 5: I have presented part of the data on which my expressed opinion is based (as an attachment) into my posts. I have made known that the complete data (recordings) can be asked and will be e-mailed to anyone interested (this is for free) for doing his/her own analysis and draw his/her own conclusions, if any.

Statement 6: I understand that any of my reporting in such a forum is subject to peer review. This is in fact my own wish.

Statement 7: Any statement of mine that seems objectionable or not supported by adequate data, is to be deemed by the participants of this forum as an erroneous one and treated as such. Upon their judgment, it can be ignored altogether. But it would not be treated as an intend from my part to impress or mislead anyone.

Statement 8: Audio is what I can describe as a hobby for me. It helps me enjoy my free time in a pleasant and some times in a beneficial (as the realization of the hobby produces usable equipment) way. It differs from my professional activities in four respects:
A. I do not profit from this.
B. I have to finance it, so I have to target projects capable to fit my pocket-money budget.
C. I am the one who decides on what to do and how far I go with it.
D. The time I spend on it has to take into account my social activities and responsibilities as a father and husband.


Regards
George
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Old 4th May 2007, 01:53 PM   #43
SY is offline SY  United States
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I think you understood my comment in the spirit it was given, but if not, I was merely pointing out that there is more than one variable here, not criticizing your work in any way. I think there's great merit in fixing the stylus assembly firmly into place and, in fact, used cyanoacrylate to do this with my old V15-III back in the day.

3dB is audible in direct comparison, but I suspect not in an informal one where there is a significant time lapse between auditions. One of the banes of removable styli is that they do not always return to a perfectly repeatable position, so the level difference is very plausible. I just hesitate to attribute it to something mysterious (why would gluing down the stylus increase the electrical output?) when there's an obvious explanation.
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Old 4th May 2007, 03:22 PM   #44
gpapag is offline gpapag  Greece
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SY,
You are on Statement 1.

Quote:
I think you understood my comment in the spirit it was given, but if not, I was merely pointing out that there is more than one variable here
The blow was given by the last 8 words.
After having read your post yesterday night, I went to bed. I was too tired to reply. In the morning that I woke up, what i could recall from my dreams was that, I was in one corner of a boxing ring, and you were sitting in the oposite corner, warming up for the fight. You were a mixture of Mark Tyson and "IsNoGood".
The refery did not let the fight to start until I woke up to go to work (one of the benefits of waking-up early).


Quote:
I just hesitate to attribute it to something mysterious (why would gluing down the stylus increase the electrical output?) when there's an obvious explanation.
Your "obvious" explanation is a plausable one for me, OK.
But the one that you call it mysterious may have a deterministic root. Let me lay down my hypothesis:
All the electrical energy that the motor of the cartridge provides to it's output pins, comes from the kinetic energy of the cantilever (better expressed: All the modulation of the moving magnet's magnetic energy, is provided by the kinetic energy supplied by the cantilever).
Where does cantilever draws this energy from? From the modulated grooves of the rotating disk.
This is the only energy source, the amount of which depends on the modulation velocity of the recording.
Now suppose that some parts of the cartridge are vibrating.
For vibration to occur, energy has to be supplied to originate vibration, as well as to sustain it.
The source of this energy according to my hypothesis is the kinetic energy provided by the cantilever.
Now the cantilever has to draw energy from the record "pool" in order to feed two power consumers.One the motor and the other the vibrating parts.
Since the energy provided by the record grooves is finite and defined, the result is that, the motor takes only part of the energy that it would, had there were no vibrating bodies.
This is the explanation that I believe makes for 80-90% of the recorded 2-3 db increase.

Regards
George
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Old 4th May 2007, 05:47 PM   #45
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Hi George:

I have little time for NG activities so I must be brief.

you said: Now the cantilever has to draw energy from the record "pool" in order to feed two power consumers.One the motor and the other the vibrating parts.

My perspective is in the following question. When and where is the stray energy manifest in output? This focuses on the subject of distortion.

You have raised an interesting issue about tonearms in general. The term "tone" in tonearm is a very old one.

There has been much emphasis on the rigid tonearm in recent years, such as the ones with no headshell.

I know I'm not being very clear here. If this makes any sense.....should a tonearm be designed to change the resonant and/or misdirected energy into something harmless in terms of frequency? Or should is be damped as much as possible?

Mark
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Old 4th May 2007, 08:06 PM   #46
bulgin is offline bulgin  South Africa
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Hi

I don't believe there are any 'misdirected' energy losses in mm carts with push-in styli. I would rather propose that due to the 'lossy' fitting of the stylus assembly in mm carts, the absolute true potential of the record grooves driving the cantilever is negated or not fully exploited due to flexing between the cart body and the cantilever holder. I guess that should there be any miniscule creaking or rattling between the latter two components, any audible result will travel to the headshell and further along the arm to the amp. Whether one would be able to measure such aberrations, is another question.

I further suspect that George's mods will result in a marginally higher output and an improved frequency response profile due to the integrity he introduced into the cartridge mass with the glue*

*) Regarding superglue or cyanowhatsisname: I use or have in my wife's fridge (where the cheese or butter should go), at least 5 or 6 different brands and kinds of the stuff. I use it to glue things together of course and have two unnamed favourites - one liquid and the other a gel. I also have in my workshop a branded superglue solvent, in gel form, as well as a large bottle of pure acetone. Sometimes, if mistakes are made in glueing, I prefer NOT to use either of the solvents I have as they make a mess. I still prefer to separate the items by heat (usualy my soldering iron set to 350C) and then scratch the remains off with an NT cutter blade.

So, what I'm getting at here - set superglue is not as hard as you may think. I have plenty of experience in scratching at blobs of the stuff with a cutter blade.

This glue will help with what George is trying to achieve but I guess that a hard-curing cement of one kind of another would give more favourable results.

I have here a substance (and I'm not quite sure if it is "Resin") but is a brown translucent stick and has a very low melting point. If you dig at this stuff with a cutter blade, it shatters into fragments like glass. Using such a substance for the purpose of what George has done, would have resulted in an even more rigid assembly.

If I have time, I'll make some experiments a la George (hope no infringement of his ideas), using a 'scope and some frequency response test records.

bulgin
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Old 5th May 2007, 07:32 AM   #47
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Default experiments?--go for it, we'll read 'em

Hello Bulgin:, by misdirected energy I mean this:

Any energy that makes it into the tone arm is going to travel around in the tubular arm. Some of it will be returned to the cartridge. This energy will be of different phase and amplitude than it's origin. It creates distortion.

Distortion causes mistracking, which causes more distortion.

It is a viscous cycle that is perpetuated by the flexible medium, the vinyl.

The fact that there are so many types of vinyl and also types of cartridges makes tonearm design difficult.

The superglue is rigid enough to transmit sound. This is what I was referring to.

Hello George: I think what Bulgin was referring to was the sloppy fit that many stylii have in the cartridge body. This is the main reason I use the gasket silicon to hold them in. If I remember correctly, 3 db is a 50% increase. (I can't find my db chart) 2.7 is not far behind. I originally thought you said 2.7 percent. This would have been more believable. I do not say that you are mistaken in your experimental results. 2.7db is an unusually large increase indicating that you had a very sloppy fit without the glue. Mark
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Old 5th May 2007, 11:20 AM   #48
gpapag is offline gpapag  Greece
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Hi all
I am in mod. mode today. I just stop for a while to have lunch (in front of the pc) and I saw a lot of posts.

Mark
3db (voltage, not power) is 37% increase. It is still a high number.
The measurement is correct, the explanation for this increase is under debate (either SY's explanation, or mine). Both explanations though, lead to high tolerances in the product (SY's at the magnet to coils interface, mine at all the external connections).

Bulgin
Again, if surfaces are well prepared and in intimate contact, cuanoacrylate is really strong.
You can weaken the Cyanoacrylate bond by putting components in a freezer for a few hours.

Quote:
(hope no infringement of his ideas)
There isn't any bright idea here.
But even there was one, it would be beneficial to remain free for use. (Has anyone of the bright guys who privatised the outcome of the human genome project ever thought how the world would be if every idea from the past was already under copyright?)
In any case, feel all free to do what you wish. Just please report back.
I am going back to moding.
Regards
George
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Old 5th May 2007, 11:48 AM   #49
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Default already under copyright?

if every idea from the past was already under copyright?

Someone actually patented the Star Trek warp drive last year. They had no design or theory, but they got a patent. The news report showed the diagrams. It was prime time news. Not supposed to be a joke. Whoever actually learns to use gravity as propulsion may have to pay royalties on his own invention.

I figured out what happened George. You have a bottle of that new low-voltage formula superglue with viagra and didn't tell us. Mark
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Old 5th May 2007, 04:42 PM   #50
gpapag is offline gpapag  Greece
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Mark and all
Although I am getting off-topic, I would like to write a few words about by stance on copyright implications.


In the beginning, money was a tool utilized to facilitate the exchange of essential products.
A farmer producing vegetables only, instead of exchanging his vegetables with the meat that a stock farmer was able to supply him, he was using money instead.
At that time, the value of money was undistinguishable from the value of hard work which the products or services represented.
Later on, this bond weakened and for centuries we are living in a world that considers money as something that can exist on itís own. Finally we have given to money a status of moral value (having thrown the established social and moral values to the waste bin).
I was raised up in a low income environment. Now, I am in a better financial state, but I still consider money as then: A product of hard and useful work.
Easy money is something I try to teach my kids to stay away from (socially useless work as well).
Copywriting everything under a totally arrogant personal attitude just for the purpose of sacking hot money, should have been considered an unethical act (for the moral morons).
It doesnít promote anything. It should be considered an act against true invention and productivity (for the rest of us morons).


Quote:
I figured out what happened George. You have a bottle of that new low-voltage formula superglue with viagra and didn't tell us.
Well Mark, I have to admit it. I have great results with this propriatary mixture. Vibrations increase up to 12 dB. For best results, I use a lighter slab (younger woman)


Regards
George
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