In my pursuit of building a complete DIY system I have now reached the turntable and phono amp stages, but I am feeling a bit frustrated with the sound and not sure what to do first.
Currently I have a very simple phono pre amp which uses 1 LM833 op amp and a direct drive turntable, (akai) and a 20yr old A and R cambridge P77 cart, with a new stylus.
All of these will be replaced but here is my question and I realise it is probably to vague to give a definte answer but any opinions are appreciated.
Even on new records I hear a degree of distortion (pronounced graininess) on the strong mid frequency sounds, especailly vocal and sharp piano notes, of course old records are much worse.
The tracking is right so thats not the problem, though it is better by a bit if I set the tracking a little on the heavy side.
Is the distortion likely to be the phono amp overloading, poor interconnects from the TT to the pre amp or the cart or all of the above. Basically I am going to build a new Phono amp first.
Additionally in loud/complex passages the whole sound becomes somewhat confused, once again what is the most likely suspect here.
Overall I like the sound of LPs but I feel I m probably very sensitive to mid range distortion and it took my ages to eradicate it from the rest of the CD based system so I sure don't want to go back to square one again.
Currently I have a very simple phono pre amp which uses 1 LM833 op amp and a direct drive turntable, (akai) and a 20yr old A and R cambridge P77 cart, with a new stylus.
All of these will be replaced but here is my question and I realise it is probably to vague to give a definte answer but any opinions are appreciated.
Even on new records I hear a degree of distortion (pronounced graininess) on the strong mid frequency sounds, especailly vocal and sharp piano notes, of course old records are much worse.
The tracking is right so thats not the problem, though it is better by a bit if I set the tracking a little on the heavy side.
Is the distortion likely to be the phono amp overloading, poor interconnects from the TT to the pre amp or the cart or all of the above. Basically I am going to build a new Phono amp first.
Additionally in loud/complex passages the whole sound becomes somewhat confused, once again what is the most likely suspect here.
Overall I like the sound of LPs but I feel I m probably very sensitive to mid range distortion and it took my ages to eradicate it from the rest of the CD based system so I sure don't want to go back to square one again.
I'd suggest taking your turntable to another known good system to isolate the problem. If it sounds good, the problem's in the phono stage, if it sounds bad, it's the turntable.
For the turntable, I would carefully set up with alignment guages and a test record as a first step and very carefully set VTA, then look at arm and spindle bearings so that it's running as well as possible to standard spec.
Mid-range distortion traced to the turntable suggests to me arm bearings or cartridge suspension if the geometry is set up correctly.
After that, and only when the deck is running well, my next thought is that cartridges have improved enormously in the last 20 years and a mm Goldring or mi Grado etc. could be a big upgrade
regards, Jeff
For the turntable, I would carefully set up with alignment guages and a test record as a first step and very carefully set VTA, then look at arm and spindle bearings so that it's running as well as possible to standard spec.
Mid-range distortion traced to the turntable suggests to me arm bearings or cartridge suspension if the geometry is set up correctly.
After that, and only when the deck is running well, my next thought is that cartridges have improved enormously in the last 20 years and a mm Goldring or mi Grado etc. could be a big upgrade
regards, Jeff
Hi,
could be a dodgy stylus as suggested, especially if the new stylus
is a generic replacement, which vary from half decent to rubbish,
A&R stopped making cartridges a long time ago.
Seems to me you are asking a lot from what could be a not very
good turntable regarding the ability to resolve complex passages.
For this you need a good turntable fitted with a decent arm.
sreten.
could be a dodgy stylus as suggested, especially if the new stylus
is a generic replacement, which vary from half decent to rubbish,
A&R stopped making cartridges a long time ago.
Seems to me you are asking a lot from what could be a not very
good turntable regarding the ability to resolve complex passages.
For this you need a good turntable fitted with a decent arm.
sreten.
The stylus is new, but I am thinking the cart may not be as good as new, maybe as suggested the suspension is cactus. I should say though that my system is very high res so all problems show up pretty obviously and I am probably a bit picky.
Would the suspension cause this mid range distotion though, the upper highs are very nice and the bass very strong.
I have found that changing all the cables on the rest of the system did remove a lot of mid range grain, so I wonder if that is worth trying too.
I don't expect much from the phono pre-amp but I don't have any other at this oint to compare it too other than the one in my Rotel 820B, but it isn't as good as this one.
I'm learning towards a Goldring 1042 cart but I wonder how it handles worn records, I know from experience that some carts are far better than others here and as I have a lot of LPs from when I was a teenager that are less than perfect this is important.
Would the suspension cause this mid range distotion though, the upper highs are very nice and the bass very strong.
I have found that changing all the cables on the rest of the system did remove a lot of mid range grain, so I wonder if that is worth trying too.
I don't expect much from the phono pre-amp but I don't have any other at this oint to compare it too other than the one in my Rotel 820B, but it isn't as good as this one.
I'm learning towards a Goldring 1042 cart but I wonder how it handles worn records, I know from experience that some carts are far better than others here and as I have a lot of LPs from when I was a teenager that are less than perfect this is important.
Hi, I've not tried the Akai turntables , but the Goldring cartridges work very nicely in other Japanese DDs of the same period. They love '70s and 80's music.
Just which one you choose I think depends on how good the arm is and i found the 1012GX sounded as good as the 1042 in the original arms that came with those decks. It's possible that the more exact stylus profile of the 1042 needs an arm of rega rb250 quality to give it's best (??).
They do reward careful setting up and are sensitive to VTA some kind of vertical adjustment is an advantage.
regards, Jeff
Just which one you choose I think depends on how good the arm is and i found the 1012GX sounded as good as the 1042 in the original arms that came with those decks. It's possible that the more exact stylus profile of the 1042 needs an arm of rega rb250 quality to give it's best (??).
They do reward careful setting up and are sensitive to VTA some kind of vertical adjustment is an advantage.
regards, Jeff
I had a similar problem years ago with a Grado cartridge. A few records would play OK but many would sound distorted. Then I finally sprung for a Shure V15 type V MR and my problems went away. I'm still using that cartridge today (10 years later) with one stylus replacement. I did buy the V15 Type Vx before they stopped making them, but I'll save that one until the older one gives out. My plan is to be able to play records at least for another 20 years...
Hi, they are all the same body and generator, but the stylus profile changes.
The 1006 is an elliptical whist as you go up the range you get variations on the Geiger profile. I've only used the 1012 and 1042 but found both amazingly good at the price.
It's an owner-replaceable stylus so you can upgrade the basic 1006 to a 1042.
Jeff
The 1006 is an elliptical whist as you go up the range you get variations on the Geiger profile. I've only used the 1012 and 1042 but found both amazingly good at the price.
It's an owner-replaceable stylus so you can upgrade the basic 1006 to a 1042.
Jeff
I was not referring to the turntable but the other parts of the system, you will see I am actually building a new TT to match the system. But before I do that I want to make sure I can get a sound quality that I am actually happy with from a cart and pre amp combo. BTW I have already made a few experiement with the TT desigm and as far as that goes it will I feel be very successful, but no the akai is not great but it is better than the others I have which includes a higher end Dual model (too much rumble for my liking).
The rest of the system is very very revealing and all DIY.
The rest of the system is very very revealing and all DIY.
Sorry - just couldn't resist.
Actually, the Japanese DD turntables can sound rather good, although they tend to be let down by the arms (not talking L-70D or TT1000 here!). They definitely don't resolve like the better modern ones, but they certainly don't distort when properly set up. You get a performance that might leave stuff out, but which doesn't grate like many a CD player.
Just set up a Sansui/1012gx for a friend, total outlay <100 pounds, and the result was "yeah, could definitely live with this" and he really likes it. Wasn't dumb enough to let him hear my Teres/Music Maker rig on the same day, though.
regards, jeff
Actually, the Japanese DD turntables can sound rather good, although they tend to be let down by the arms (not talking L-70D or TT1000 here!). They definitely don't resolve like the better modern ones, but they certainly don't distort when properly set up. You get a performance that might leave stuff out, but which doesn't grate like many a CD player.
Just set up a Sansui/1012gx for a friend, total outlay <100 pounds, and the result was "yeah, could definitely live with this" and he really likes it. Wasn't dumb enough to let him hear my Teres/Music Maker rig on the same day, though.
regards, jeff
Thanks Jeff, no worries, I agree entirely about the arms, they are mostly rubbish, certainly the one on the Akai is. It is strange though, the drive is very stable and quiet but the arm is just sloppy mainly in the vertical bearing, I have looked at this but there is no satisfactory method of adjustment, just poor design really.
On the other hand I have an old belt drive Pioneer PL514X which has a very solid arm and overall the TT is very well engineered....but it transmits motor noise which lets the whole plot down (pretty big motor too). I have used this for digital transfers and when a filter is applied in processing to remove the LF noise the results are very nice.
Similar situation with the Dual, it seems to have great potential, the attack on transients is great etc and the machine is built like a tank, but Oh the rumble! Just can't live with it, but once again with LF filtering for transfers it might be good.
It did occur to me that combining an jap DD platter unit and a modern arm in a new plinth could be a viable option for DIY however I worry about future repairs as I had another DD unit that packed it in but couldn't be fixed due to no spares been available.
On the other hand I have an old belt drive Pioneer PL514X which has a very solid arm and overall the TT is very well engineered....but it transmits motor noise which lets the whole plot down (pretty big motor too). I have used this for digital transfers and when a filter is applied in processing to remove the LF noise the results are very nice.
Similar situation with the Dual, it seems to have great potential, the attack on transients is great etc and the machine is built like a tank, but Oh the rumble! Just can't live with it, but once again with LF filtering for transfers it might be good.
It did occur to me that combining an jap DD platter unit and a modern arm in a new plinth could be a viable option for DIY however I worry about future repairs as I had another DD unit that packed it in but couldn't be fixed due to no spares been available.
I think the A&R Cambridge and Garrott Bros cartridges are the same, there is even similarity in numbers......
This could perhaps be a source for a decent stylus, always quite liked my C77 and E77.... They are not cheap though...
Goldring is a good deal also.
Sumiko Pearl and Black Pearl also work well in modest arms, again styli are interchangeable.
This could perhaps be a source for a decent stylus, always quite liked my C77 and E77.... They are not cheap though...
Goldring is a good deal also.
Sumiko Pearl and Black Pearl also work well in modest arms, again styli are interchangeable.
I modded a Akai DD with my own made cardanic arm. Sounds rather good, but did this 18 years ago and have some other idea's about it now. When i have time will start to rebuild it again. The DD is not exact synchronous rotating to my ears, will glue a lead ring in platter, replace arm tube with a carbon one, and marble arm base will be exchanged with a wooden part under the arm. Marble resonates in mid sound region, not the best material to build a DD and arm on. But its beautiful.
The distorsion comes from the cart imo, when i replaced the Ortofon OM10 to an Benz Gold (thanks Pjotr!) experienced less distorsion. But the phono stage is important too, with the right impedance matchings. I have to change the phono stage too in time.
[img=http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/6489/armoq2.th.jpg]
The distorsion comes from the cart imo, when i replaced the Ortofon OM10 to an Benz Gold (thanks Pjotr!) experienced less distorsion. But the phono stage is important too, with the right impedance matchings. I have to change the phono stage too in time.
[img=http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/6489/armoq2.th.jpg]
hi, beautiful arm do you have a description?
"Marble resonates in mid sound region, not the best material to build a DD and arm on" - have you tried Corian, an artificial marble that is bonded with resin. It's a very good substitue and already used by manufacturers like Nottingham analogue. It's expensive, but every time a kitchen/bathroom fitter installs a sink there's a nice turntable-sized offcut fom the hole.
regards, Jeff
"Marble resonates in mid sound region, not the best material to build a DD and arm on" - have you tried Corian, an artificial marble that is bonded with resin. It's a very good substitue and already used by manufacturers like Nottingham analogue. It's expensive, but every time a kitchen/bathroom fitter installs a sink there's a nice turntable-sized offcut fom the hole.
regards, Jeff
arm & Corian
Hi Jeff.
Good idea this Corian. Will ask a kitchen builder for a peace. And when i can get only a small peace of black Corian to put under arm it would be enough too i think.
The arm have i made as final task to get graduated from technical education as fine-mechanic engineer. Its from aluminium, anodised myself, bearings supplied by RMB precision bearings (swiss?) at that time. They run on hard steel & polished angled tips made from clock parts. They can be aligned to minimal (no) play. It has a combinatin of spring and counterweight for balancing, adjusting apropriate weight is by turning the spiral spring, very simple and easy method. But the counterweight will be replaced by one which as an excentric hole, for lower mass placement. The Benz is very smooth through the groove, much better than the anxious fiddly bouncing OM.
But the alu arm tube resonates sound direct into the marble and back. Thats why i want to refit it with carbon tube. Have now a rubber isolation ring mounted between arm base and marble, this helped a little allready: better mids.
Hi Jeff.
Good idea this Corian. Will ask a kitchen builder for a peace. And when i can get only a small peace of black Corian to put under arm it would be enough too i think.
The arm have i made as final task to get graduated from technical education as fine-mechanic engineer. Its from aluminium, anodised myself, bearings supplied by RMB precision bearings (swiss?) at that time. They run on hard steel & polished angled tips made from clock parts. They can be aligned to minimal (no) play. It has a combinatin of spring and counterweight for balancing, adjusting apropriate weight is by turning the spiral spring, very simple and easy method. But the counterweight will be replaced by one which as an excentric hole, for lower mass placement. The Benz is very smooth through the groove, much better than the anxious fiddly bouncing OM.
But the alu arm tube resonates sound direct into the marble and back. Thats why i want to refit it with carbon tube. Have now a rubber isolation ring mounted between arm base and marble, this helped a little allready: better mids.
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