Salas hotrodded DCB1 resistor tryouts

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Scorpion

Member
Joined 2002
Hi all,

Here is a thread about a little fun I am going to have in the following weeks trying different resistor types and brands in specific positions in the Salas hotrodded Hypnotized DCB1.

I will try to optimize and/or fine tune the sound to the very best I can and will post results here.

I know there is going to have two camps: believers and nonbelievers. You can call me an "audio fool", and frankly; I can live with that. Still, I am going to experiment and enjoy doing it....

But please let's remain civilized, respectful and polite and share our experiences in this common passion of ours, DIY.

Ok, here it goes. I have decided to build around certain components, already chosen because I know how they sound from past experiments. Gotta start somewhere !!! So wheter the different resistors sound good or bad in specific locations on the board will depend on synergy (or lack of) with rest of components and of course with the whole sound of my system. At least 2 or 3 other experienced audiophiles from the Montreal region are going to share this "journey" with me trough comparative listening sessions.

Anyway, I (we) am (are) gonna be in for an interesting ride !!! Btw, I have 2 boards, one for experimenting and one for final construction.

Here are the differences with TEA-BAG's kits:

Relay: Takamisawa A-12W-K silver/gold plated contacts
Rectifier diodes: CREE SIC Schottky 600v 10A
Capacitors: Audyn True Copper film 0,22-0,47uf
Black Gate NX or Nichicon FG or Elna Silmic II 100uf 50v
PSU caps: Siemens/Epcos Sikorel or SIC-SAFCO Felsic Capax 10 000uf
SCR aluminum metallized polypropylene 200uf 350v (current drawing caps, ESR 1,3...)
Transformers: 2X E-Core 100va split "bobine" (1 per B+ B-)
Terminal block: None. Will go direct wires.
I/O connectors: None. Will go direct wires.

I will post the resistors' list in the following post.

Regards

Scorpion
 
S

Scorpion

Member
Joined 2002
Ok so here goes the list of the different resistors. Of course, almost all my efforts are going towards the ones in the signal...



SIGNAL RESISTORS

220 ohms 1/4W: Vishay VAR naked Z-Foil

10 ohms 5W: Mills MR12 2,2ohms 12W (should get around 900mA-1A instead of 600mA with 3,3 ohms)

470 ohms 1/2W:
Allen Bradley carbon comp 5% 1/2W
Amtrans Japan carbon film 1% 3/4W
Arcol Japan carbon comp 5% 1/2W
Kamaya Japan carbon comp 5% 1/2W
Kiwame Japan carbon film 1% 2W
Ohmite carbon film 5% 1/2W
Riken Ohms Japan carbon film 1% 1/2W
Takman Japan REX carbon film 2% 1/2W

I know, carbon can drift but still...

220 Kohms 1/4W:
Audionote Japan tantalum film 1% 1/2W
Allen Bradley carbon comp 5% 1/2W
Amtrans Japan carbon film 1% 3/4W
Caddock MK132 metal film 1% 3/4W
Kiwame Japan carbon film 1% 2W
Ohmite carbon film 5% 1/4W
PRP metal film 1% 1/4W
Riken Ohms Japan carbon film 1% 1/2W
Takman Japan REY metal film 1% 1/4W
Takman Japan REX carbon film 2% 1/4W
TKD Japan CM2 metal film 1% 2W

1 Mohms 1/4W:
Holco H4 metal film 1% 1/2W
PRP metal film 1% 1/4W
Takman Japan REY metal film 1% 1/4W
TKD Japan CM2 metal film 1% 2W
Vishay PTF metal film 0,1% 5ppm 1/4W

I know this resistor is in // with the ground but will see what it does...


NON-SIGNAL RESISTORS

1ohms 1/4W: Roederstein Resista MK3 1% 1/4W

47 ohms 1/4W:
Roederstein Resista MK3 metal film 1% 1/4W
Takman Japan REY metal film 1% 1/4W

100 ohms 1/4W:
Roederstein Resista MK3 metal film 1% 1/4W
Takman Japan REY metal film 1% 1/4W

2,2 Kohms 1/2W: Roederstein Resista MK3 1% 1/4W

10Kohms 1/4W: Roederstein Resista MK3 1% 1/4W

47Kohms 1/4W: Roederstein Resista MK3 1% 1/4W


Oufff !!! Voilà !!!

Regards

Scorpion
 
S

Scorpion

Member
Joined 2002
Here is the match plan for SIGNAL RESISTORS...

Will start with Vishay naked Z-foil in the signal for max transparency. Will then try different resistors at position#2. Make the optimal choice, and then, move to position#3 and so on. Don't care if I have to try 10 different resistors per position as long as I end up with max musicality.

Regards

Scorpion
 
BigE

BigE

Member
Joined 2008
Get a copy of audio-diff maker and digitize each sample to compare in real time.

Make sure you level match the replay of listening. I think audiodiffmaker will level match when subtracting the two samples. You do need a half decent A/D converter.
 
nezbleu

nezbleu

Member
Joined 2009
Am I looking at the wrong schematic? I don't see any 470R in the signal path. And why are those ALL carbon? If you are going to do a comparison, shouldn't you try something different? And why are you assuming that the Vishay is the only choice for 220R? Why not try some others there and try to quantify the difference? Even try some inexpensive ones -- wouldn't it be great if you found the best result was with an inexpensive MF?
 
A

AndrewT

R.I.P.
Joined 2004
With just 3 signal types that have options and two non signal types with only two options of each, you will have 1760 different combinations to test and report on.
Any idea how you can present that data in a form you can understand.
Any hope for us?

If you were to add in the option to revert to the standard resistor for those 6 that show no options the number of combinations increases to 112640.

You have stated
as long as I end up with max musicality.
Click to expand...
which, to me, means no measurements to help with differentiation, I have to ask:
How can you remember which of the 112640 combinations sounds any different and in what respect?
What will the database look like?
 
S

Scorpion

Member
Joined 2002
nezbleu said:
Am I looking at the wrong schematic? I don't see any 470R in the signal path. And why are those ALL carbon? If you are going to do a comparison, shouldn't you try something different? And why are you assuming that the Vishay is the only choice for 220R? Why not try some others there and try to quantify the difference? Even try some inexpensive ones -- wouldn't it be great if you found the best result was with an inexpensive MF?
Click to expand...

Hi Nezbleu

Thanks for your comments. You are right, the 470R is NOT in the signal (but the gate stopper). My bad. I got that wrong. Why trying carbon types only ? Because according to hottroded BOM , carbons seem to be preferred and recommended (from past users' experiments ?). That's all.

That was my reasoning (or lack of...;-) ) for going all carbons. Still, I am willing to try different types. No problems. Any suggestions ?

As far as the Vishay VAR Z-foil in the 220R position, I am far from assuming it is the only choice. But I have to start somewhere and it is MY choice because I know how it sounds (put it at the very beginning of the audio signal in my power amp). FOR ME, it is very transparent and I like it a lot.

You are damn right in saying that there are other options. Maybe even better ones and almost certainly cheaper ones.

But I settled on a resistor I already know. If I feel something is wrong, I will definitely try something else.

I know it is NOT the only choice. Any types/brands you would like me to try in the 220R position ? Please send your suggestions and I will be more than happy to give it a try and report back.

Thanks again for your input.

Regards

Scorpion
 
S

Scorpion

Member
Joined 2002
Rodeodave said:
I think the 470R are gate stoppers in the regs. The idea is to use a non-inductive resistor, so carbon comp is the "usual" choice. Helical film anything would defeat the purpose I'd think.

And we're gonna need some pics :)
Click to expand...

Hi Rodeodave,

Thanks for your comments.

You are right the 470R are NOT in the signal. My mistake.

I saw in the hotrodded BOM that carbon types were preferred, is the non-inductive feature the main reason or was prior listening sessions from different comparative experiences taken in consideration as well ?

Does it mean that I could, for example, try say...a Shinkoh Tantalum ?

Btw, of course I will take pics and post them. Not even a question ;)

Thanks again

Regards

Scorpion
 
S

Scorpion

Member
Joined 2002
mrWagner said:
Presumption before it starts already. There goes objectivity.
Click to expand...

Hi Mr Wagner,

You are right I made the presumption that I had to start somewhere. I chose the Vishay VAR Z-foil because I know how it sounds from past experiences (very transparent and see trough TO ME). Still it might even not be a good fit as the 220R in the DCB1...and maybe not a fit AT ALL. No problem then, I'll kick it out the window...

It was just my intend/ idea for a start. Nothing less, nothing more. I figured that since it is so transparent, it would be easier for me to hear differences (subtleties ?) --- should it be the case ---when swapping other resistors/components downstream. That's all.

How is it a lack of objectivity ? Damn, I have to start with a resistor at the 220R position, right ? The VAR Z-foil might even not be there at the end of my experiments.

I am opened to comments and suggestions from you all guies.

Still, I am wondering if I would have read the same comments if I had stated the I wanted to start my project with a 10 cents resitor in the audio signal (and YES it could be a better fit then the Z-foil, I know) instead of the expensive Vishay. ?.

Anyway, I like this hobby as much as you guies and am trying to do my best to report and share. Maybe I got it right, maybe I got it wrong but it is a real pleasure to read from you all, learn and share.

Regards

Scorpion
 
M

mrWagner

Member
Joined 2006
You can test what ever you like as this is your test and as this is the Internet, you will not make everyone happy with the testing method :) The only problem was for me that you only test 1 type of resistor where the sound actually goes through. And the reason is "carbon comp is the "usual" choice".
You can leave the whole B1 section untouched, but don't do it because it is the usual choice. Now you wrote it has the best sound for you so far, which is perfectly reasonable answer for me. But not for others. Internet is big. Everyone will tell what you do wrong. Remember, never give up, never surrender, it is your test :D
 
S

Scorpion

Member
Joined 2002
AndrewT said:
With just 3 signal types that have options and two non signal types with only two options of each, you will have 1760 different combinations to test and report on.
Any idea how you can present that data in a form you can understand.
Any hope for us?

If you were to add in the option to revert to the standard resistor for those 6 that show no options the number of combinations increases to 112640.

You have stated which, to me, means no measurements to help with differentiation, I have to ask:
How can you remember which of the 112640 combinations sounds any different and in what respect?
What will the database look like?
Click to expand...

Hi AndrewT,

Thanks for your response

Obviously, there is absolutely NO WAY for me to remember all these possibilities so I guess you could read my reports with a smile, desinterest or criticism. Or even not read them at all. Your choice.

You seem to me like a very very knowledgeable man and I read a lot of your posts with great interest. I learn a lot from you. I like and respect your scientific approach but for me, science is not everything (I am not saying it is everything for you either btw) in audio (and life in general).

Subjectivity is definitely part of the story, I think. Always was, always will be. That is what differs us from machines. People that report here in DIY do so in regard to their own experiences. But of course they have different tastes and preferences, moods...and sound system (NOBODY has the same). But the way I see things goes pretty much in that sense...

If a lot of different people with different tastes, equipements and all share a "common experience" after trying components "X" , then I think that we ought to consider that maybe, just maybe, component "X" as its own "house sound" that could be frequently recognized from a bunch of different people under different circumstances.

Does it measure ? Maybe (probably), maybe not. In the above scenario is this "house sound" all bias, don't think so. Then again, to me science is an ongoing quest wich tries to bring answers within the limits of the present knowledge. But present knowledge is what it is, trapped within its boundaries. I am more than willing to keep an opened mind to the possibility that science can't explain everything about "feelings and pleasure" as of yet...What exactly is going on in our extremelly complex brain is waaayyy beyond science.

Who knows, maybe one day science will come up with --and then explain-- all this audio related sublectivity/biased with some sort of "new" measurements that we have absolutely no idea exists at this very moment.

Until science can proove why I like such and such (I'll be long gone by then anyway), I will continue to share my "subjective findings" about the potential impacts of resistor swapping in the DCB's audio signal. At one point if my experiments -- along with others' -- show a common ground...then...

Hope to share and learn with you all.

Since -- as you rightfully said-- I wont be able to remember every combinations back and fourth, I intended to proceed from scratch ( Vishay Z-foil) with a "starting components kit" and take "subjective notes" about my finding as I roll between different resistors at position #2. Find the one I prefer, and move to #3.

Of course it will be my subjective appreciation (is there an appreciation that is not ?)....but since I am the only one with my tastes...and sound system, that's what it is going to be.

Still, I am seriously considering giving the Audio DifferenceMaker (as suggested by Big E) as I go through swappings to see if my subjectivity measures ;)

So to answer your initial question, I guess no, I can't provide hope but only share on our common passion, audio DIY.

Most respectfully

Scorpion
 
S

Scorpion

Member
Joined 2002
Turbon said:
Try rhopoint miniohms... Charcroft Z's is as I believe the same as vishay Z's. Could be wrong there.

Regards
Click to expand...

Hi Turbon,

I tried to find a supplier for the rhopoint miniohms (after they were recommended by Salas) but to no effect. These resistors do have excellent specs and I am very interested in giving them a try. I even wrote to rhopoint on their website but received no answer as to where I could get them.

Do you have any idea where I could get my hands on a few 220R and 220K ?

Your help would be much appreciated.

Thanks

Regards

Scorpion
 
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