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Old 29th April 2013, 06:10 PM   #11
paulfx is offline paulfx  United States
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Good article. Just in case I've gone ahead and ordered 35 feet of 4 gauge. This buss will be an elongated star ground.
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Old 29th April 2013, 06:45 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paulfx View Post
Thanks for replying, jj - - On Rod Elliott's grounding/earthing page

Earthing (Grounding) Your Hi-Fi - Tricks and Techniques
There is a problem with Rod's recommendation.

A 35 amp bridge can fail open during a fault.

There are several types of bridge constructions out there I am familiar with intimately. One type has an aluminum case, and the diodes are arranged such that explosive forces will push against the side wall of the case. The case will constrain the structure sufficiently long that the silicon will fully short during melt. Some bridges are designed where the chip is horizontal to the mounting surface such that the forces are up in the case, where only epoxy is the constraint. The end user will not know what type they have selected, so may or may not have a safe arrangement.

I would recommend a fast blow fuse on the hot line just as it enters the case.

jn
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Old 30th April 2013, 12:15 PM   #13
AndrewT is online now AndrewT  Scotland
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Jn,
I tested and reported the Disconnecting Network (DN).
It consisted of the bridge rectifier, shorted across both diagonals. Tappings off adjacent terminals.
A 100nF ceramic cap (x7r) and a 10r 600mW metal film.
The fuse holder exploded as both fuses (live and neutral) ruptured.
None of the components in the DN were damaged in any way that I could measure.
I suspect a Fault current approaching a kA passed through the DN.
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Old 30th April 2013, 01:48 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewT View Post
Jn,
I tested and reported the Disconnecting Network (DN).
It consisted of the bridge rectifier, shorted across both diagonals. Tappings off adjacent terminals.
A 100nF ceramic cap (x7r) and a 10r 600mW metal film.
The fuse holder exploded as both fuses (live and neutral) ruptured.
None of the components in the DN were damaged in any way that I could measure.
I suspect a Fault current approaching a kA passed through the DN.
Shorting across both diagonals completely removes the bridge. Did you mean shorting the positive terminal to the negative one? edit: ah, you said tappings off adjacent terminals..nevermind..

Never, ever...and i mean...NEVER put a fuse into the neutral line. Ganged breakers ok, not fuses.

What did you test? I was speaking about a hot to ground short, not hot to neutral. Hot to neutral doesn't exercise the bridge.

Was your test per the schematic?

jn
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Old 30th April 2013, 01:54 PM   #15
AndrewT is online now AndrewT  Scotland
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My report spelled out the conditions of the test.
I connected the Live to the Main Audio Ground. Then switched on at the socket outlet.
I think my test pre-dated ESP's webpage. ESP copied his information from this Forum. But he has a misleading diagram. The PE should be connected directly to Chassis. The DN should also be connected to Chassis, but this connection does not need to be near the PE connection. His diagram shows the PE running through the DN and then to Chassis . This "running through" is WRONG.

The Fuse holder incorporated into the IEC filter happened to have both poles fused. I fitted a T4A into the Live pole and a T8A into the Neutral pole (I think I described that as well).
Both fuses exploded. I never found much of the fuses.
One end cap was "gone". Much of the glass was "gone". One end cap, if I remember correctly, was still inside the fuse holder. Two others were on the floor on the other side of the room.
No one else volunteered to do this test when I suggested we should check what we were recommending. Eventually I stepped up to the plate and did it.

But the point:
none of the components in the DN were damaged, neither electrically, nor visibly as far as I could tell.
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Last edited by AndrewT; 30th April 2013 at 01:59 PM.
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Old 30th April 2013, 02:02 PM   #16
AndrewT is online now AndrewT  Scotland
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Quote:
Shorting across both diagonals completely removes the bridge. Did you mean shorting the positive terminal to the negative one? edit: ah, you said tappings off adjacent terminals..nevermind..
I don't get much wrong and especially if it relates to Safety.
If I had this wrong I would post a big OOPS and correct my error.

Now that you have read it, the dual shorting achieves paralleling of the diodes and only one Vf as the voltage drop.
This Vf could be very high at 1kA or 2kA.
It would be nice to have some experimental data to complete this test & report.
Do you have facilities to measure the kA Fault Current and Vf while passing that almost instantaneous Fault Current?

ESPs single shorting and tappings off opposite sides leaves single diodes in series, for double the Vf and near half the current capability.
There is no advantage in having a doubled Vf.
There is a very definite advantage in having paralleled diodes.
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Last edited by AndrewT; 30th April 2013 at 02:07 PM.
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Old 30th April 2013, 04:49 PM   #17
AndrewT is online now AndrewT  Scotland
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ESP's diagram does show the dual shorting across the bridge rectifier.
He has paralleled the diodes.
http://sound.westhost.com/earthing.htm
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Old 30th April 2013, 06:42 PM   #18
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I didn't understand your blowing the neutral fuse. I see you're across the pond. Your neutral is hot to ground? On this side of the pond, neutral fuses are frowned upon.

The fuses losing containment is not good, perhaps slow blow's aren't nice there.

The KBPC35 series of bridges will be in the 1.8 to 2 volt range at a kiloamp. But it is rated to survive a single 400 amp half sine superimposed on rated load (JEDEC method). It's rated up to 660 Amps squared seconds for fusing.

jn
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Old 1st May 2013, 09:22 AM   #19
AndrewT is online now AndrewT  Scotland
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Just for confirmation, we in the UK are also not supposed to fuse the Neutral.
It just happens that, that particular IEC filter came with fusing for both poles and a switch. I wanted the filter and the switch and this was the only IEC socket that I had in stock that gave this facility.

To help prevent blowing of the Neural fuse alone, I doubled the fuse rating from the Live T4A to T8A.

For the test I did not change that, I just linked the Live to Main Audio Ground to "prove" that my "concoction" was safely protecting from electrocution.

All my other IEC filters do not have any fuses. I see no problem, other than I could insert an even bigger Neutral fuse or even solder a 1mm copper link through a "dummy" fuse.

Unfortunate that the fuse door blew open, but the explosion was quite extreme.
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Old 1st May 2013, 08:42 PM   #20
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I am still very very unhappy that the neutral fuse blew. From your description, it should not have done so. What's going on??

I also am unhappy that there was a containment breach. Fuses are not supposed to do that.

I do know that they voltage rate the bigger fuses for that reason. But I don't know about the fuses you chose. If they were v rated for your application, maybe it means the fuses should be fast blow. And rated to protect the wires only, not the equipment.

I also recall the load panel breakers I use as being 10kA fault current rated. Is it possible that the fuses or holder you chose have ratings like that as well?

jn
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