Of course consoles can sound differently with eq's switched off. But the main use of a mixing console is to "mix" and there is where you use the eq's and are the most contributing part of the sound. That is why you can buy famous eq's in a external box.
I have seen consoles which sound nice with the eq's flat and sound terrible when the eq's are used and vica versa.
I have seen consoles which sound nice with the eq's flat and sound terrible when the eq's are used and vica versa.
Update!
I ordered a couple of so-called high performance opamps. I did the master-section and one channel strip. In the same round, I also did recap the master section and the channel. I had finally given in to all the audiophile hype around changing opamps to get "darker background, wider image, more detailed but less hyped highs, violins comming clearer through" and all the other subjective terms to describe differences in sounds, and decided to try to "upgrade" the opamps. I have never believed in all the hype, and I am sorry to say to all of you "audiophiles" that I still think it's a load of cr**. I was very dissapointed when I plugged the "upgraded" channel strip in, and connected a couple of microphones (Neumann U87 and a Shure SM57) and a DI-box to both the channels with a Y-splitter cable. I made sure that both channels were gained identically, checking the level in my DAW so they were matching within 0.4 dB. I recorded some voiceovers, snare hits, bass guitar notes and other stuff,. I A/B'ed the recordings (not a blind test), and other than the improved low-end of the recapped channel, I couldn't hear a difference. There was no darker background (whatever that means) no relaxed mid, no non-hyped highs, just an identical channel with improved low end because of the recapping. The monitor system I use is a set of Yamaha NS-1000M and a Yamaha MX-1000 amp, so I would expect to be able to hear a difference if there were any. Even the noise floor was just about the same for the two channels, any small difference could just as well be differnce in component tolerances. All that hype about super fast opamps is, in my opinion, completely nonsense. The good old 5532 is still one of the best suited opamps for these tasks.
After that, I did some measurements. I did use my DAW and sound interface. Some of you might say that an audio interface and a VST plugin from a DAW is not the best tools for doing measurements, but I would actually think that it will be the most appropriate, since that's where the signals eventually will end. I put a test tone in to the two channels, and monitored the frequency graphs of the two channels (layered on top of each other so that I could compare the two graphs). I could see that there were slightly better distortion characteristics of the reworked channel, but that could just as well be because of the new and better Low-ESR caps I used to recap the channel.
I also measured intermodulation distortion, inputting two different frequencies into the channels at a quite high level, far beyond where the peak lamps where lighting up (though the desk still has some headroom above the peak-light), and I couldn't measure any considerable differences between the two channels and their distortion characteristics.
So based on these tests, with both measurements and listening, I don't believe that changing op amps is the way to improve this console. This will also save me the hassle of acquiring a larger power supply
A total recap of the console is of higher priority. I could measure a 2 dB drop at around 50 Hz, when comparing the recapped and the non-recapped channel. That is a considerable amount when we're talking bass guitar or kick drum.
I tried the mod described by Jim Williams, cutting the feedback loop of the first opamp and connecting that to the emitter of the inverting transistor in the discrete first stage of the preamp, but that didn't work. Can any one of you tell how exactly to do that mod? I couldn't get it to work.
I ordered a couple of so-called high performance opamps. I did the master-section and one channel strip. In the same round, I also did recap the master section and the channel. I had finally given in to all the audiophile hype around changing opamps to get "darker background, wider image, more detailed but less hyped highs, violins comming clearer through" and all the other subjective terms to describe differences in sounds, and decided to try to "upgrade" the opamps. I have never believed in all the hype, and I am sorry to say to all of you "audiophiles" that I still think it's a load of cr**. I was very dissapointed when I plugged the "upgraded" channel strip in, and connected a couple of microphones (Neumann U87 and a Shure SM57) and a DI-box to both the channels with a Y-splitter cable. I made sure that both channels were gained identically, checking the level in my DAW so they were matching within 0.4 dB. I recorded some voiceovers, snare hits, bass guitar notes and other stuff,. I A/B'ed the recordings (not a blind test), and other than the improved low-end of the recapped channel, I couldn't hear a difference. There was no darker background (whatever that means) no relaxed mid, no non-hyped highs, just an identical channel with improved low end because of the recapping. The monitor system I use is a set of Yamaha NS-1000M and a Yamaha MX-1000 amp, so I would expect to be able to hear a difference if there were any. Even the noise floor was just about the same for the two channels, any small difference could just as well be differnce in component tolerances. All that hype about super fast opamps is, in my opinion, completely nonsense. The good old 5532 is still one of the best suited opamps for these tasks.
After that, I did some measurements. I did use my DAW and sound interface. Some of you might say that an audio interface and a VST plugin from a DAW is not the best tools for doing measurements, but I would actually think that it will be the most appropriate, since that's where the signals eventually will end. I put a test tone in to the two channels, and monitored the frequency graphs of the two channels (layered on top of each other so that I could compare the two graphs). I could see that there were slightly better distortion characteristics of the reworked channel, but that could just as well be because of the new and better Low-ESR caps I used to recap the channel.
I also measured intermodulation distortion, inputting two different frequencies into the channels at a quite high level, far beyond where the peak lamps where lighting up (though the desk still has some headroom above the peak-light), and I couldn't measure any considerable differences between the two channels and their distortion characteristics.
So based on these tests, with both measurements and listening, I don't believe that changing op amps is the way to improve this console. This will also save me the hassle of acquiring a larger power supply
A total recap of the console is of higher priority. I could measure a 2 dB drop at around 50 Hz, when comparing the recapped and the non-recapped channel. That is a considerable amount when we're talking bass guitar or kick drum.
I tried the mod described by Jim Williams, cutting the feedback loop of the first opamp and connecting that to the emitter of the inverting transistor in the discrete first stage of the preamp, but that didn't work. Can any one of you tell how exactly to do that mod? I couldn't get it to work.
I am very happy you did discover this yourself....
I have worked many years with Soundcraft consoles in live sound and studio, from the earliest ( series one and two) 400, 400b, 800b, 200b, 1600,2400, 500b, 600b, 8000, Delta and so on. Except for the oldest ones ( transistor and single 24volt rail), they sound all the same. But that is no suprise if you look at the schematics, it is all recycling of the same basic concept. All manufactures do that, every brand has its own sound. But then came along the Crest Century, completely dc coupled inside, balanced mix busses, state of the art ssm input and output chips ( including mic stage). That was a big difference!!!!!
I had a Tac Matchless in my studio, did some work on it ( better opamps, nice ground bus and so on). The only difference it made was the total noise level became a bit better. The "sound" was unaltered!
I have worked many years with Soundcraft consoles in live sound and studio, from the earliest ( series one and two) 400, 400b, 800b, 200b, 1600,2400, 500b, 600b, 8000, Delta and so on. Except for the oldest ones ( transistor and single 24volt rail), they sound all the same. But that is no suprise if you look at the schematics, it is all recycling of the same basic concept. All manufactures do that, every brand has its own sound. But then came along the Crest Century, completely dc coupled inside, balanced mix busses, state of the art ssm input and output chips ( including mic stage). That was a big difference!!!!!
I had a Tac Matchless in my studio, did some work on it ( better opamps, nice ground bus and so on). The only difference it made was the total noise level became a bit better. The "sound" was unaltered!
I tried OPA2134, OPA2604, LM6172, OPA2277 and others. The extensive testing I did, was with the OPA2134 which I often see highly appraised for it's capabilities in the audio field. As I said, I was not able to hear any difference, except improved low end on the reworked channel which probably has more to do with the recapping.
I would still like a more thorough description of the mod I quoted on page two by Jim Williams of Audio Upgrades:
I tried that but it didn't work.
I would still like a more thorough description of the mod I quoted on page two by Jim Williams of Audio Upgrades:
I tried that but it didn't work.
Yes, I tried real audio through the LM6172 (though the very first stage of my channel modules only use a single op amp, since it does not have a line input at in the schematic, so I used a OPA134 in this position in all the tests). I also activated the EQ (flat though) and both the Phase and Low cut switch, inserting at least five op amp stages in the signal chain. I let the signal exit from the DAW, allowing further op amp stages in the chain.
I would expect that a complete recap of the console will have much more impact on the sound, than changing the op amps. What I have heard during my own tests didn't convince me that it is worth the high cost. These types of op amps are expensive even at bulk prices. Lucky for me, I can get Low-ESR 105 degrees caps pretty cheap throug my work.
Just out of curiosity, I took a look at the schematics of a couple of high-end pieces of studio equipment, among others, the world famous SSL 4000G desk and some other stuff, and most of it were stuffed with 5532's, so I would expect that it is the circuit topology and many of the surrounding components around an opamp that defines the sound, rather than the opamp itself.
My next plan would be to maybe try to find other ways to upgrade, or at least make a couple of channel strips different than the others, to have some options/different colors of sound.
I would expect that a complete recap of the console will have much more impact on the sound, than changing the op amps. What I have heard during my own tests didn't convince me that it is worth the high cost. These types of op amps are expensive even at bulk prices. Lucky for me, I can get Low-ESR 105 degrees caps pretty cheap throug my work.
Just out of curiosity, I took a look at the schematics of a couple of high-end pieces of studio equipment, among others, the world famous SSL 4000G desk and some other stuff, and most of it were stuffed with 5532's, so I would expect that it is the circuit topology and many of the surrounding components around an opamp that defines the sound, rather than the opamp itself.
My next plan would be to maybe try to find other ways to upgrade, or at least make a couple of channel strips different than the others, to have some options/different colors of sound.
Really not trying to be a smartiepants, but a few of us told you.... 
All this op-amp changing is largely based on belief rather than reason. At least it requires a chip-specific design in order to optimise the circuit. As I said earlier, in that circuit noise and several other features will mainly be determined by first transistors in that compound.
If you really want to change the 'sound' I think you should try external mic preamps, tube or SS, buy or build... there's quite a lot of info out there....
All this op-amp changing is largely based on belief rather than reason. At least it requires a chip-specific design in order to optimise the circuit. As I said earlier, in that circuit noise and several other features will mainly be determined by first transistors in that compound.
If you really want to change the 'sound' I think you should try external mic preamps, tube or SS, buy or build... there's quite a lot of info out there....
I had never believed in all the audiophile hype, not the stuff about opamps either, but while I built the studio, I spent more time hanging around forums where audiophiles and musicians hang around and that apparently got me to give in a little to this hype, but I was confirmed in my original belief, and I am very happy that I didn't give in to all that crap.
The only thing I see can be done here to this desk, is the Jim Williams mod to reduce the noise and to recap the whole thing with high quality caps. Other than that I could spend my time making music and renting out the studio so I can get money to buy more cool gear. I am not at all dissatisfied with the sound of the console, it's not clinical and clean, but as I mostly will be recording rock and the occasional heavy metal bands, it suits my needs fine. I just thought that if there were any easy improvements, I would try them.
Are there any of you who can explain the mod to the first stage of the preamp as I described above?
The only thing I see can be done here to this desk, is the Jim Williams mod to reduce the noise and to recap the whole thing with high quality caps. Other than that I could spend my time making music and renting out the studio so I can get money to buy more cool gear. I am not at all dissatisfied with the sound of the console, it's not clinical and clean, but as I mostly will be recording rock and the occasional heavy metal bands, it suits my needs fine. I just thought that if there were any easy improvements, I would try them.
Are there any of you who can explain the mod to the first stage of the preamp as I described above?
I have linked to the complete schematics in the second post. The schematic for the whole input module is found on page 4. My modules are not completely identical, since they don't have the line in, but instead have 8 aux send pots, otherwise the circuits are completely identical.
Yeah...I know you linked it in the 2nd post...I looked at the partial circuit.
I have cell-phone internet...
...& unfortunatly downloading a gazzilion terra-bytes of Soundcraft PDF's & chopping bits out of them is not on the cards.
Just wondered, since you already have it...if it was easy to post a complette front end.
Si.
I have cell-phone internet...
...& unfortunatly downloading a gazzilion terra-bytes of Soundcraft PDF's & chopping bits out of them is not on the cards.
Just wondered, since you already have it...if it was easy to post a complette front end.
Si.
Here is the complete (well almost) schematic of the channel strip.
I have not cleaned the XLR inputs, good idea, will do that.
I have not measured the phantom power output, will do that too
I normally use loads of microphones when recording. It is not unusual to have 14-18 mics just for the drum kit.
For kick drum I usually use a AKG D112, Beta 52A and a home made subkick. Snare gets a Sennheiser MD421 or Beyer M201 on top and a SM57 or Small Diaphragm Condenser on the bottom. For HiHats i use Røde M3, and either MD421, SM57 Beyer Soundstar (similar to MD421) or Shure PG56 for toms, depending on which I don't use on the other drums. For OH I use Groove Tubes Convertible and sometimes I throw my Neumann U87 for room, or ride cymbal whichever one is important. I often borrow a stereo set of AKG C-414 for room/ambience.
The rest of the instruments use the same pool of microphones (SM57, MD421, U87 and so on) depending on requirements and whatever sounds good.
It's not unusual for me to use two or three microphones on a guitar cab and then blend to taste.
I have not cleaned the XLR inputs, good idea, will do that.
I have not measured the phantom power output, will do that too
I normally use loads of microphones when recording. It is not unusual to have 14-18 mics just for the drum kit.
For kick drum I usually use a AKG D112, Beta 52A and a home made subkick. Snare gets a Sennheiser MD421 or Beyer M201 on top and a SM57 or Small Diaphragm Condenser on the bottom. For HiHats i use Røde M3, and either MD421, SM57 Beyer Soundstar (similar to MD421) or Shure PG56 for toms, depending on which I don't use on the other drums. For OH I use Groove Tubes Convertible and sometimes I throw my Neumann U87 for room, or ride cymbal whichever one is important. I often borrow a stereo set of AKG C-414 for room/ambience.
The rest of the instruments use the same pool of microphones (SM57, MD421, U87 and so on) depending on requirements and whatever sounds good.
It's not unusual for me to use two or three microphones on a guitar cab and then blend to taste.
Attachments
Hi Ronne
Thanks for the diagram.
Just grabbed some shut-eye...back now.
Thanks for the mic info.
It just gives a quick picture as to what you're doing there.
Nice mics, nice technique ( I'm sure you already know that though ! ).
I have got several more ideas you could try ( none involve op-amps !!!!! ).
To me they are the most obvious way to, incrementaly; hopefully raise the 'sonic' quality of what you have already ( which I'm sure is basicaly good ).
Where are you by the way ? ( Ronne ? ).
Is your studio in a large built-up area ?
ie. lots of cell-phones, mini-cab radios, industrial-motors & the-like around.
Or a country-mile from the nearest signs of life.
( I suspect the former; just a guess though )
Coffee is made !!!
Back in a bit.
Si.
You could have a few ( depends on budget ) extra pre-amps, as well.
Nice to know you're not afraid of soldering.
How about a top-notch mic-pre for £60 and 2 or 3 hours to solder it together ???
Net result is; you can reduce the gain somewhat on the board itself...BINGO...
Perhaps just a few to start with; for your overheads & condensers.
Nice !
Tube-pre as well !!!
With nice dial-able 'valve sound'...
Blues & jazzers gonna love 'em...
...dunno about the metal-boyz though.
Thanks for the diagram.
Just grabbed some shut-eye...back now.
Thanks for the mic info.
It just gives a quick picture as to what you're doing there.
Nice mics, nice technique ( I'm sure you already know that though ! ).
I have got several more ideas you could try ( none involve op-amps !!!!! ).
To me they are the most obvious way to, incrementaly; hopefully raise the 'sonic' quality of what you have already ( which I'm sure is basicaly good ).
Where are you by the way ? ( Ronne ? ).
Is your studio in a large built-up area ?
ie. lots of cell-phones, mini-cab radios, industrial-motors & the-like around.
Or a country-mile from the nearest signs of life.
( I suspect the former; just a guess though )
Coffee is made !!!
Back in a bit.
Si.
You could have a few ( depends on budget ) extra pre-amps, as well.
Nice to know you're not afraid of soldering.
How about a top-notch mic-pre for £60 and 2 or 3 hours to solder it together ???
Net result is; you can reduce the gain somewhat on the board itself...BINGO...
Perhaps just a few to start with; for your overheads & condensers.
Nice !
Tube-pre as well !!!
With nice dial-able 'valve sound'...
Blues & jazzers gonna love 'em...
...dunno about the metal-boyz though.
Well, my real name is Christian, the Ronned2tm is a longer story, not really interesting
The studio is placed in Denmark in a city called Esbjerg. The neigbourhood is mixed industrial and residential. I could suspect that there might be som RF interference, but since the control room itself is placed inside an old bank deposit box, where cell phone reception is very problematic, I would only suspect that the signal lines from the different rooms in the studio might be possible suspects of RF interference.
I have recorded a bunch of stuff already, mostly rock and a couple of jazz tunes, with excellent results, though I know there is room for improvement.
The obvious no-brainer would be to buy some nice external preamps, but I am willing to do DIY if there is money to save. I already own equipment and parts for building various stuff, valve stuff too. I have a quite large stock of valves, (100+) both used, new and NOS. I also have access to PCB production via my work and have several years of experience with soldering and electronics fault finding, since I am educated as an electronics technician. I do it for a living
Could you link to some schematics for nice preamps? I would be very interested in making some, if it can be done relatively cheap. If I understand you correctly, there is not much to do inside the console?
Coffee is nice! I'm having a cup right now
Hi Christian
Yes ...a couple of console mod ideas to follow.
The mic-pre mentioned for £60....
...dunno what the euro's doing at the moment...but read that as 60 euro's ( ish )...
...All components, PCB, pots, sockets, valve & holder, all included in the price...
...individual phantom-power supply on each board...
...individual local regulation on each board...
All you need is a case & a transformer, rectifier & large filter caps in an external PSU; to power as many as you want.
I would buy 2 to start with.
See if you like 'em ( you will ).
Could put a whole bunch of 'em in a 2u or 3u case ( VERO 2u / 3u ventilated rack case, farnell.com CHEAP & good case ! ).
Schematics & more to follow ...
Another coffee needed...
Am S L O W typer
Si.
Yes ...a couple of console mod ideas to follow.
The mic-pre mentioned for £60....
...dunno what the euro's doing at the moment...but read that as 60 euro's ( ish )...
...All components, PCB, pots, sockets, valve & holder, all included in the price...
...individual phantom-power supply on each board...
...individual local regulation on each board...
All you need is a case & a transformer, rectifier & large filter caps in an external PSU; to power as many as you want.
I would buy 2 to start with.
See if you like 'em ( you will ).
Could put a whole bunch of 'em in a 2u or 3u case ( VERO 2u / 3u ventilated rack case, farnell.com CHEAP & good case ! ).
Schematics & more to follow ...
Another coffee needed...
Am S L O W typer
Si.
Hi again Christian
The most significant studio upgrade you will ever make is...
...a bottle of meths & a load of pipe-cleaners & rag...
...cost...2 euro's.
Clean the mic pins
Clean the mic lead XLR's
Clean the board XLR sockets
Clean the phantom-power switch
Clean the pad switch
When you think you've cleaned them enough...
...start again, with new pipe-cleaners & rag...
...and do it AGAIN !!!
Got the message ?
You could at this point add some fancy 'Hi-Fi' Deox-It fluid...
...I think a product called INOX is cheaper though.
( people clean their slot-car race tracks with it ( I like slot-car race tracks !!! ))
Next...
...pull the modules on the board & do the same.
In fact, anything that comes off the main-frame; pull it & CLEAN IT !!!
Then the guitar gear ( more low-level signals getting screwed ).
Then your jack-fields.
Then your outboard.
Then your recorder.
Etc. etc. etc.
Also while you have the board apart...
...hoover & dust it out.
Blocked ventilation holes & dust = heat build-up = noise.
More to follow...
Si.
What recorder do you use ?
The most significant studio upgrade you will ever make is...
...a bottle of meths & a load of pipe-cleaners & rag...
...cost...2 euro's.
Clean the mic pins
Clean the mic lead XLR's
Clean the board XLR sockets
Clean the phantom-power switch
Clean the pad switch
When you think you've cleaned them enough...
...start again, with new pipe-cleaners & rag...
...and do it AGAIN !!!
Got the message ?
You could at this point add some fancy 'Hi-Fi' Deox-It fluid...
...I think a product called INOX is cheaper though.
( people clean their slot-car race tracks with it ( I like slot-car race tracks !!! ))
Next...
...pull the modules on the board & do the same.
In fact, anything that comes off the main-frame; pull it & CLEAN IT !!!
Then the guitar gear ( more low-level signals getting screwed ).
Then your jack-fields.
Then your outboard.
Then your recorder.
Etc. etc. etc.
Also while you have the board apart...
...hoover & dust it out.
Blocked ventilation holes & dust = heat build-up = noise.
More to follow...
Si.
What recorder do you use ?
Well, the guts of the Soundcraft has already been thoroughly cleaned, though I haven't cleaned the XLR and Jack sockets. I will do that, and maybe get my assistant to help me. Luckily there is not a single scratchy pot in the console. Never given the microphones a thought but it does make sense to me that cleaning all contacts would be a good idea.
I mostly record to digital via three Presonus FirePod totalling to 24 channels of simultaneous recording. Around half of the times I use the board for mixing/summing, and the other half, I mix in the box, but tracking is of course always through the console when I do it in-house. Occasionally when I'm mixing through the board, I mix down to tape (Studer B67, just recently acquired and completely restored, very nice and warm full sound) and back into the computer just to get the tape warmth onto the track, befor sending of to mastering or doing mastering myself. I do have a plan at some point to invest in an analogue multitrack recorder (preferably 2") so that my studio has the option to make a complete analogue record, if a client want that.
All of the cables in the fixed installations is of high quality, properly screened, and the loose cables used in the studio are all of high quality cable with either Switchcraft or Neutrik connectors, all soldered by myself using a good solderng iron and solder, guaranteed no cold joints.
Thank you for taking your time to give me some advice. Though unlikely to happen, if you're ever in Denmark, particulary around the west coast city Esbjerg (actually where the ships from the UK sail from) you are more than welcome to visit me at the studio and have cup or ten of coffee.
I mostly record to digital via three Presonus FirePod totalling to 24 channels of simultaneous recording. Around half of the times I use the board for mixing/summing, and the other half, I mix in the box, but tracking is of course always through the console when I do it in-house. Occasionally when I'm mixing through the board, I mix down to tape (Studer B67, just recently acquired and completely restored, very nice and warm full sound) and back into the computer just to get the tape warmth onto the track, befor sending of to mastering or doing mastering myself. I do have a plan at some point to invest in an analogue multitrack recorder (preferably 2") so that my studio has the option to make a complete analogue record, if a client want that.
All of the cables in the fixed installations is of high quality, properly screened, and the loose cables used in the studio are all of high quality cable with either Switchcraft or Neutrik connectors, all soldered by myself using a good solderng iron and solder, guaranteed no cold joints.
Thank you for taking your time to give me some advice. Though unlikely to happen, if you're ever in Denmark, particulary around the west coast city Esbjerg (actually where the ships from the UK sail from) you are more than welcome to visit me at the studio and have cup or ten of coffee.
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