sound of discrete opamps - Page 28 - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > Source & Line > Analog Line Level

Analog Line Level Preamplifiers , Passive Pre-amps, Crossovers, etc.

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 25th March 2013, 03:59 PM   #271
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Skokie Il
Quote:
Originally Posted by Speedskater View Post
Fast Eddie's "Hot Rod Lincoln" see post #235

My pappy said "Son your gonna drive me to drinkin'
If you don't stop drivin' that Hot Rod Lincoln"

Have you heard the story of the hot rod race
Where the Fords and Lincolns were settin' the pace?
That story is true I'm here to say
I was drivin' that model A.

It's got a Lincoln motor and it's really souped up
That a Model A body makes it look like a pup
It's got eight cylinders and uses 'em all
Got overdrive, just won't stall

With a four barrel carb and dual exhausts
With four-eleven gears you can really get lost
Got safety tubes, but I ain't scared
The brakes are good, the tires fair

Pulled out of San Pedro late one night
And the moon and the stars were shining bright
We was drivin' up Grapevine Hill
Passin' cars like they was standing still

All of a sudden, in the wink of an eye
A Cadillac sedan passed us by
I said, "Boys, that's a mark for me!"
By then the tail lights was all you could see

Now the fellas ribbed me for being behind
So thought I'd make the Lincoln unwind
Took my foot of the gas and man alive
I shoved it on down into over drive

Wound it up to a-hundred-and-ten
My speedometer said that I hit top end
My foot was glued like lead to the floor
That's all there is and there ain't no more

Now the boys all thought that I'd lost my sense
And telephone poles looked like a picket fence
They said "Slow down, I see spots!"
The lines on the road just looked like dots

Took a corner, Side-Swiped a truck
Crossed my fingers just for luck My Fenders was clickin' the guard rail posts
The guy beside me was white as a ghost

Smoke was coming from outta of the back
When I started to gain on that Cadillac
Knew I could catch him, I thought I could pass
Don't ya know by then we'd be low on gas?

Had flames comin' from outta the side
Feel the tension, man what a ride
I said "Look out boys, I've got a license to fly"
And that Caddy pulled over and let us by

Now all of the sudden she started to knockin'
And down in a dips she started to rockin'
I looked in the mirror, a red light was blinkin'
The cops was after my Hot Rod Lincoln

They arrested me and they put me in jail
And called my pappy to throw my bail
He said "Son, you're gonna to drive me to drinkin'
If you don't stop drivin' that Hot Rod Lincoln"
They used to play that song over the PA system when I was in the staging lanes.
  Reply With Quote
Old 28th March 2013, 12:33 AM   #272
owdeo is offline owdeo  Australia
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Sydney
Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigBuckingham View Post
Yes Bonsai I already did have a look at your website and your designs. I made particular reference to your decoupling methods earlier. Textbook style or should I say datasheet style. If you do some more experimentation you will find there are some futher gains to be made in that respect.

WRT to the o/p biasing there are even more gains to be made with distortion generated at the input pair stage of the op-amp. I don't see it looking on these forums anywhere and it is certainly not commonly known or talked about.

I am only interested in pointing people with an open mind and who are concerned with the original question about the sound of discrete op-amps.

Anyone that wants to get personal or insult I suggest politely to not ruin a great resource for other interested people.
Hear hear to that!

I agree wholeheartedly with just about everything you've said througout this thread.
These pages seem to be dominated by a few theoreticians that like to dismiss any claims of subjective differences without proof - a convenient position to take since they know said proof in unlikely to exist. They often use so-called rational arguments and yet their own statements nearly always conform to the ridiculous view that THD figures/curves uniquely define the subjective quality of a device. My conclusion is that these people either have cloth ears, or the experimental bias that they usually accuse those with subjective opinions to be guilty of is affecting their ability to perceive differences in the same (but "opposite") way.

In my experience all of the discrete preamp designs I've tried have sounded far better than any of the opamp-based designs I've tried, and I've tried plenty of both. While I don't like generalising too much, I also have given up on opamps - they do sound gritty and unpleasant a lot of the time. I'm sure it is distortion - just a type that isn't revealed conveniently by THD figures and so can be conveniently written off as nonsense if so desired. I'm quite sure there's nothing mysterious about this distortion - but the advancement of this science/art is being severely limited by these theoreticians that won't or can't trust their ears. If they were right, the whole snake-oil industry and subjective review industry would not exist to the extent it does. Sure it is easy to think you hear things that don't really exist, but that doesn't mean everything you hear is delusional just because you haven't checked with a double-blind (ie confusing) listening panel.
  Reply With Quote
Old 28th March 2013, 01:02 AM   #273
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Not presenting yourself as objective any more then, owdeo?
  Reply With Quote
Old 28th March 2013, 01:13 AM   #274
owdeo is offline owdeo  Australia
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Sydney
Nope - not in the way you undoubtedly mean anyway...

But fair call, I originally built Douglas Self's Precision Preamp '96 after a long break from audio projects and had started to buy into the whole "anti-subjectivist" philosophy and was expecting it to sound brilliant, as an engineer might expect from its excellent set of conventional measurements. But it doesn't - it totally kills my enjoyment of music played through it and I've since done a lot more work on discrete designs to the point where I'm very happy with one of them and don't feel the need to change it. I really don't think it's useful to dismiss subjective evaluation out of hand unless you are a designer that can afford to take this position and it might make your job easier...
  Reply With Quote
Old 28th March 2013, 01:18 AM   #275
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Hmm. Puzzling. Are you absolutely sure it's performing correctly?
  Reply With Quote
Old 28th March 2013, 10:57 AM   #276
DF96 is online now DF96  England
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Why do 'they' keep dragging THD into the discussion and accusing 'us' of believing in it? If you do a count, I suspect you will find that they mention THD far more than we do. We do believe that if the output is a faithful copy of the input then the job is done; are you questioning this basic assumption of analogue electronics? We can argue about how best to measure this: THD is not a good measure which is why 'we' rarely mention it except when telling you this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by owdeo
If they were right, the whole snake-oil industry and subjective review industry would not exist to the extent it does.
If we are right, then the whole snake-oil industry and subjective review industry should not exist to the extent it does. But people believe what they want to believe. Routinely, favourably-reviewed (and sometimes expensive) equipment is found to include basic design errors. . Sometimes these are even visible in poor measured results (such as high distortion and lumpy frequency response, in those mags which do measurements). It is hard to escape the conclusion that they are favoured because of their poor performance, not in spite of it (as the journalists fondly imagine).

Opamps can be misused, even to the extent of oscillation (or nearly). The problem is the design, not the opamp. Apart from the issue of thermal coupling, a discrete opamp is likely to be no better than a chip opamp and could be far worse. The chip designer has some tricks he can use (such as well-matched transistors) which are not available to the same extent to the discrete designer.
  Reply With Quote
Old 28th March 2013, 11:36 AM   #277
godfrey is offline godfrey  South Africa
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Cape Town
Quote:
Originally Posted by owdeo View Post
Sure it is easy to think you hear things that don't really exist, but that doesn't mean everything you hear is delusional just because you haven't checked with a double-blind (ie confusing) listening panel.
I agree with all of that except the "confusing" part. I don't see why double-blind tests should be confusing.

It's easy enough to organize a DBT on the basis of: "Here's two preamps. Try them both and see which you prefer. You're allowed to test them both however you want, wherever you want for as long as you want. Just one rule - no looking inside to see which (if either) uses opamps."

Would you find a test like that confusing?
  Reply With Quote
Old 28th March 2013, 01:03 PM   #278
SY is offline SY  United States
diyAudio Moderator
 
SY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Chicagoland
Blog Entries: 1
At 50:50, it would be rather statistically insignificant! Of course there are lots of other easy ways to do blind tests, but not everyone trusts their ears. You'd think that if something "totally kills the enjoyment of music," it's presence/absence in the signal chain would be trivially easy to pick up in the same sort of blind tests that show detection of extremely small level, frequency response, phase, and data compression artifacts.
__________________
You might be screaming "No, no, no" and all they hear is "Who wants cake?" Let me tell you something: They all do. They all want cake.- Wilford Brimley
  Reply With Quote
Old 28th March 2013, 01:34 PM   #279
godfrey is offline godfrey  South Africa
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Cape Town
Quote:
Originally Posted by SY View Post
At 50:50, it would be rather statistically insignificant!
The first datapoint is always the hardest.

Also: If the result comes back as "That's odd, I couldn't tell the difference", then something will have been learned.

Last edited by godfrey; 28th March 2013 at 01:47 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 28th March 2013, 02:02 PM   #280
SY is offline SY  United States
diyAudio Moderator
 
SY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Chicagoland
Blog Entries: 1
It never does. I assure you, even hard core rationalists like me will look for and often perceive differences even when they're not there.
__________________
You might be screaming "No, no, no" and all they hear is "Who wants cake?" Let me tell you something: They all do. They all want cake.- Wilford Brimley
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
low noise discrete opamps robmil Solid State 0 7th May 2010 07:24 AM
Are Discrete components better than Opamps ? jsa_ind Everything Else 51 20th December 2006 08:23 AM
discrete vs. IC opamps? has anyone tried the pass labs design? dorkus Pass Labs 22 28th June 2001 01:02 AM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 11:48 AM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2