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Old 2nd April 2011, 06:56 PM   #21
GoranB is offline GoranB  Poland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacco vermeulen View Post
Masochist audiophile, ha ?
Im not saying its wrong to use an equalizer to change the original sound of particular recordings. But, that doesnt mean that sound will be improved. It will be just different then the original. Bad recordings are bad recordings, there is no cure.
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Old 2nd April 2011, 07:01 PM   #22
GoranB is offline GoranB  Poland
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Originally Posted by kevinh View Post
Your ears are the guide. I have audio equipment so I can enjoy music I love. You play the recording and use the tone controls to optimize the recording for your system in your room.

No mistakes to be made, the criteria is your enjoyment of the recording.
I agree. The point is to enjoy music, we are choseing our own ways to achive that.
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Old 2nd April 2011, 07:38 PM   #23
kevinh is offline kevinh  United States
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Originally Posted by GoranB View Post
I agree. The point is to enjoy music, we are choseing our own ways to achive that.



What I find interesting about this discussion is that in seeking the 'best' sound there are factors that have a primary effect on the sound then other factors that are secondary, then factors that are minor at best.


In my opinion the Speakers and Room Acoustics are primary factors in the sound of a system.

The electronics are secondary. There are identifiable factors in the quality of the sound, eliminating crossover distortion, making sure that distortion components are low order distortion primarily 2nd harmonic with less 3rd and that distortion decreases in a liner manner with volume and remains low order harmonics. Clean power to the electronics and so on.

The rest cables and so on are very minor to non existent.

I think that a well designed tone control like the Palette. has the influence of speakers and room acoustics. Probably just below that level but much more influence than the difference between well designed electronics.


I think that in trying to perfect the 2nd and 3rd order factors many of us don't pay enough attention to the rooms acoustics and tone controls for our systems.

Now that the Burwin Bobcat has been reduced in price to $469 USD it will be my next purchase.
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Old 2nd April 2011, 07:49 PM   #24
GoranB is offline GoranB  Poland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinh View Post
What I find interesting about this discussion is that in seeking the 'best' sound there are factors that have a primary effect on the sound then other factors that are secondary, then factors that are minor at best.


In my opinion the Speakers and Room Acoustics are primary factors in the sound of a system.

The electronics are secondary. There are identifiable factors in the quality of the sound, eliminating crossover distortion, making sure that distortion components are low order distortion primarily 2nd harmonic with less 3rd and that distortion decreases in a liner manner with volume and remains low order harmonics. Clean power to the electronics and so on.

The rest cables and so on are very minor to non existent.

I think that a well designed tone control like the Palette. has the influence of speakers and room acoustics. Probably just below that level but much more influence than the difference between well designed electronics.


I think that in trying to perfect the 2nd and 3rd order factors many of us don't pay enough attention to the rooms acoustics and tone controls for our systems.

Now that the Burwin Bobcat has been reduced in price to $469 USD it will be my next purchase.
Every segment of an audio system is important less or more. Good audio source and amplifier should be followed by good speakers and adequate room. I also agree that speakers are very important in the audio chain. We can use EQ to try to fix the frequency responce in our rooms, but how we can be sure that we are doing the right thing? Our ears are not the reference we can follow, its too subjective. Without adequate meassuring equipement installed in our rooms (SF) we cant be sure if we are doing right.
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Old 2nd April 2011, 07:54 PM   #25
kevinh is offline kevinh  United States
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Measuring the room and having good speakers in a good room is always the primary focus. In my ideal situation I would put the most $$$ into the best speakers I could afford and an equal amount of $$$ into a properly designed room using acoustic design materials like those from RPG

RPG Diffusor Systems
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Old 3rd April 2011, 06:52 PM   #26
GoranB is offline GoranB  Poland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinh View Post
Measuring the room and having good speakers in a good room is always the primary focus. In my ideal situation I would put the most $$$ into the best speakers I could afford and an equal amount of $$$ into a properly designed room using acoustic design materials like those from RPG

RPG Diffusor Systems
It could be the primary focus for those who are lucky to have separated room for listening, but majority of us can only dream about. In a hypothetic, almost perfect room for listening, equiped with the best audio equipement it could be that there will be no need for an equalizer.

Anyway i deeply support Nrik's project. He made really good work with the case, probably he will use better circuits and parts in the future to upgrade his project.
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Old 15th October 2011, 06:06 AM   #27
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I'm all for being able to adjust the sound. I tried many affordable units and couldn't listen to them. I only wish I could afford or build something like the OP did. I found some pictures of insides of both Palette and Audio Palette. Latter was a "cheapy" version ($6500 new), used op-amps etc, inside looks normal. There is one on Audiogon right now, sitting at $1700 already. There is an Audio Palette there as well, asking price $15500. That one is filled out to the rim!

In any case, I am tired of living with a straight wire... I wonder if there are any affordable EQs out there that would not make my ears cringe. So far - and surprisingly - the least damage was caused by the long discontinued Behringer digital signal processor DSP8024, but it's like a computer and is difficult to operate. BTW, DSP 2496 that came after, IMHO - sucked.

Suggestions?
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Old 18th October 2011, 08:26 PM   #28
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Tone Controls are a must. Personally I prefer a four band baxandall (variable slope) that I have developed over several decades of experimenting. Those rich fools who have no tone controls on their $5000 preamp probably also spent over $1K on their speaker wires (heh heh heh)... Your tone control unit is probably one of the best investments you could make in a system.

Linkwitz uses the OPA2134 opamps in his active crossovers (me too). They sound excellent to my ear. Put power supply bypass caps (usually 0.1uF) within 2 inches of any opamp, closer is better. If all the resistors over 1K are metal film 1%, all the caps are Polyprop or better, it's unlikely that further improvements will be audible. Using a "star-center" grounding scheme properly is where a lot of people make mistakes.

High surge current gnd. wires at the primary filter caps and bridge rectifier should join together first, before entering the "star center" gnd. bolt. I use regular 78 and 7915 TO-220 regulator chips in the power supply, but because the power supply is always directly in the signal path, and can destroy the stability (phase margin) of any high feedback circuit (opamps in this case) if it presents an inconsistent impedance over frequency , I always put at least a few uF of polyprop caps across the output of any power supply, so the opamps see a short for AC from about 1HZ to many many mHZ.

I even use separate ground return wires and power supply bypass caps for each section of circuitry. AND passive Rf filtering at the audio and AC inputs, since opamps turn to crapp when trying to deal with Rf energy that gets brought in by everything external acting as an antenna. I BW limit to 100kHZ with a simple RC at the inputs, and 0.01 3kV caps across the AC line in and 0.1uF (or more) across any electrolytics. It's often these little "side issues" that taint or corrupt the quality of an otherwise good circuit. Hope this is helpful. Maybe you already know all of this.
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Old 19th October 2011, 08:20 AM   #29
noelm is offline noelm  United States
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Default AR equalizer

I once saw an ad for an equalizer from Acoustic Research. Looked like it was well made. A poor man's Cello Palette. Does anyone know if it was actually produced?
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Old 19th October 2011, 10:48 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noelm View Post
I once saw an ad for an equalizer from Acoustic Research. Looked like it was well made. A poor man's Cello Palette. Does anyone know if it was actually produced?
Yes it was, and they pop up for sale from time to time, prices vary greatly I've had one. The looks and build were much better than the sound. Like a typical eq of that era it detracted more of the sound than it helped. That one was advertised as poor mans Cello. I switched to digital sound processing after that.
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