The "Sound" of Electronics vs Transducers

[psemeraro]

I hope this thread starts a lively discussion including the pros. I've been tediously rebuilding my electronics for years including using LM opamps, naked Visay resistors, premium tubes, eliminating caps in the signal path or worst case replacing with teflon, or VitQ, etc. Preamps, EQs, crossovers, power amp front-ends, etc. Every time there is a marked improvement in areas that I don't know how to measure: openness, clarity, texture, smoothness, space, snap, etc. A radio shack 10k carbon film and a naked Vishay can both measure exactly 10k ohms but they "sound" very different, the Vishay being significantly better - clearer, less hazy, less electronic. I don't use those terms to be esoteric, I just don't know how else to describe what I hear. As a concert pianist I am well aware of what a 9' Steinway should sound like and most electronics completely reduce the sound of a piano to complete crap! Everyting that makes a live piano sound beautiful is missing. Playing in a live acoustic jazz trio has created my reference when I listen to electronics.

My guess is that measurements taken before and after mods would probably be almost the same. 20 - 20k + or minus a few tenths of a dB one way or another is NOT significant (a piano sounds quite different day to day depending on humidity, temperature and more!) yet the "sound" after modding is completely different. Distortion (according to the manufacturer) can measure in .000s of a percent before the mod yet the original sound can be sterile and lifeless. Upgrading the power supply can greatly improve a units sound yet there is no "specification" to show why a preamp sounds better with better filter caps. If the manufacturer says 20 - 20k +-.1 dB and 110dB signal to noise then what is not being shown on the specs that make the unit sound so poor by comparison in stock form. How about a tube device with much worse specs but that sounds much more like a real piano? What changes when I upgrade parts that improve the sound even though the original specs showed noise and distortion below the theshhold of audibility? why do the worst measuring devices (tubes, class A, no feedback) sound most like real instruments?

I hypothesize that the gross distortions of loudspeakers can be less audible than the minute distortions of electronics based on the way our hearing actually works. A concert piano has TONS of noise from the key action, pedal board, probably a signal to noise ration of 20dB or so yet it sounds magnificent. Are manufacturers measuring all of the wrong things?

[Glowbug]

Loudspeaker distortion/interaction with the room is significantly more of what we hear than the electronics...

What changes when I upgrade parts that improve the sound even though the original specs showed noise and distortion below the theshhold of audibility?

Could be a more pleasing frequency response to you?

[Shaun]

Originally Posted by Glowbug

Loudspeaker distortion/interaction with the room is significantly more of what we hear than the electronics...

I believe that the reason that changes in the sound of electronics are nevertheless noticeable is that the signature of the acoustic environment (loudspeaker-environment interaction) does over time become transparent. Thus the success of 100-hour burn-in of loudspeakers.

[Glowbug]

What do you mean transparent?

Your ears might get used to it, but the room interactions and higher level of distortion from the speaker remain.

[abraxalito]

Originally Posted by psemeraro

I hope this thread starts a lively discussion including the pros. ..... What changes when I upgrade parts that improve the sound even though the original specs showed noise and distortion below the theshhold of audibility?

Interesting posting - thanks. It reflects my current line of tinkering too, though I'm not retrofitting 'premium' parts, rather correcting layout errors (mainly insufficiently thought-through grounding).

My current hypthosesis is that noise floor modulation might be one of the missing aspects that's not being tested for. But equally, I'm sceptical of current measures of 'threshold of audibility' - to my understanding they deal with tones and don't take account of stereo imaging effects. I remember at an AES long long ago before the widespread acceptance of mp3 Michael Gerzon mentioning that one of the areas not addressed by perceptual coders at the time was 'stereo unmasking'. I have no idea if its taken account of in more recent algorithms.

[psemeraro]

Glowbug, perhaps you make my point better than I can. What intrigues me is that despite the distortions of the speakers and speaker/room combo I can still hear very audible changes when I swap components that SHOULD be below the threshold of audibility.

In the fairness of full disclosure the speakers i am currently using consist of lacquer soaked Eminence 3012HO and JBL2407 (BMS4540nd) on CD horn crossed biamped at 1200hz 24 dB/octave plus a seperate subwoofer. I use a highly tweaked White instruments EQ and 1/6 octave analyzer to set the response to mostly flat at my listening position. My room is NOT perfect but I have a large array of decorator pillows on the walls to absorb the worst reflections. I would guess that the thd of the speakers is below 1% at my domestic listening levels.
On a side note there is a fascinating level of microdynamics that exist in many recordings which I believe most people never get to experience and I am having fun discovering them!

[Shaun]

Originally Posted by Glowbug

Your ears might get used to it

Yes. And when this happens, it becomes of less significance than the numbers (distortion) might suggest. Consider that the ears are only transducers; we actually hear with the brain which, I believe, is responsible for processing what we hear. Over time it could very naturally neutralise the sonic signature of the loudspeaker and acoustic environment. When we talk about threshold of audibility we are considering the information reaching the ears, but the function of the brain in the process upsets the equation.

[SY]

As a concert pianist I am well aware of what a 9' Steinway should sound like and most electronics completely reduce the sound of a piano to complete crap!

Is this true of the direct mike feed in the studio or concert hall recording? Can I assume that every recording in my collection (save one or two exceptionally boring "audiophile" specials) will sound like complete crap regardless of the care and work I've put into designing and building my system?

[gpapag]

As a concert pianist I am well aware of what a 9' Steinway should sound like and most electronics completely reduce the sound of a piano to complete crap!

Can I assume that every recording in my collection (save one or two exceptionally boring "audiophile" specials) will sound like complete crap regardless of the care and work I've put into designing and building my system?

A few days ago I was listening to a radio program which dealth with the composition details of a classic music piano concert.

The program producer-a pianist himself- played part of the piano bars in a piano that was in the radio station studio and later on he had the same part been played from a DG renowned recording.

The dynamics, the full sound and the liveness of the radio station piano was some classes above the professional recording of the DG record.

The detrimental effect that all the equipment - from the radio station studio up to my ears (included) - imposed on the sound, could not mask such a huge difference.

I have to live with the castrated sound of the recordings I can afford to buy.

Best Regards
George

[jlsem]

As a concert pianist I am well aware of what a 9' Steinway should sound like and most electronics completely reduce the sound of a piano to complete crap! Everyting that makes a live piano sound beautiful is missing.

It's generally the recording itself that is at fault. I used to think that I would never hear a stereo system reproduce a grand piano accurately until one day I bought a cd of Georges Pludermacher playing Debussy. The quality of the recording was astounding and even my mediocre homemade system produced the sound of a real piano. I've since come upon some other good piano recordings, but not many. It's the recording engineer's and producer's fault that you can't get a good piano sound.

http://www.amazon.com/Debussy-Childr...5902709&sr=1-5

http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Comp...5903492&sr=1-4

John