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Old 1st January 2010, 04:30 PM   #1
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Default LM1036 vs TDA1524 vs Other

Hiya guys! My first post on DIYAUDIO.

I am wanting to build a tone control. The chip solutions sure look easy, and based upon their data sheets, they look like awesome performers. My intuition would make me think a discrete design would be better, but I'm not sure if my construction abilities could produce a noise free discrete circuit. I think it's time for some facts and info.

First off, since I am a noob, could you point me at FAQs for perfboard layout/wiring/construction do's and don'ts. I do know about star/single point grounding rules.

- So, which chip is better (if "better" can be applied to these chips ) ?
- Can I get away with the circuits published in the data sheets?
- I saw a kit built around the TDA1524 for ~$25: http://www.electronickits.com/kit/co.../ampl/k100.pdf
I don' think I could build it for that cost on my own. Is this a viable option?

Any other advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks guys !!!
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Old 10th January 2010, 11:31 AM   #2
hipanni is offline hipanni  India
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hi , everybody
which tone or bass treble circuit is best or your choice, please give me best and crystal clear tone control circuits .

thanks for all,.
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Old 13th January 2010, 08:44 AM   #3
Vikt0r is offline Vikt0r  Ukraine
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Hi, everybody!
Also looking for a decent circuit, capable of tone-compensated volume attenuation and tone control (at least bass&treble).

Thanks in advance!
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Old 25th October 2010, 05:58 AM   #4
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Greetings

Wow I thought I was the only one using the LM1036 with DC volume and tone controls for creating my preamps. It's good to know that there is still an interest in this little capable IC.

I have been using this preamp IC in many of my homebrew amplifiers and most recently in modding certain boomboxes. My most recent mod was the Memorex MX3851 boombox, which some of you may still see on your Wal-Mart shelves. I'm sure some of you are Googling this model now and saying to yourselves "Ewwww that cheap junky thing??" Lol. Let's just say I like challenges.
I had to scrap the junky 2.5W/ch channel amp, ditch the embarrassingly junky transformer, crappy tinny PC beep speaker quality drivers, and scrap the laughingly horrible implementation of bass boost all in place of a new amplifier IC using the STA540, a gutted 12V 5A switching power supply purchased from ebay, an additional preamp circuit consisting of the LM1036, and the absolute most challenging part of all, finding 3" round full range speakers that can handle more than 25 watts as well as using a dremel to aid in mounting the speakers.
---Disadvantages---
The past challenges I have ran into with the LM1036 and a power amplifier is that upon power cutoff on the preamp you will hear an annoying pop. Also you need to make a very critical choice of output capacitors on the preamp output stage or otherwise you might get what I call the "idle motorcycle engine effect" when cranking up the volume. That's when you will a rhythmic popping sound like an idled motorcycle in the background, not very loud, but darn annoying as heck. To cure the turn off pop I had to create an RC filter 1st for the preamp, and then create a transistor based delay switch-off circuit so that upon powering off the power amp the preamp will retain power for 2 seconds and then power off.
---Advantages---
Now as far as the quality goes I am quite impressed. The quality of the LM1036 overshadows the minor headaches and disadvantages of the LM1036. It completely outdoes any of my previous opamp based preamps that I have mastered. The boost quality is just phenomenal, as long as you select the correct bass and treble capacitors and match the boosting with the dynamics of your speakers. There is none of that AC humming, as long as you use the correct grounding procedures, and it is quiet. The highs are crystal clean and crisp and the bass is not at all muddy. Now if you really like heavy bass it has a loudness compensation that really takes the bass much farther, although this is where you have to make sure the speakers can handle the load from your power amp. I use the loudness compensation in place of the bass boost on the Memorex boombox. I also use the DC volume control vs the conventional dual gang method mostly because it keeps both channels balanced upon volume changing. i also only need single gang pots for the bass, treble, and balance which also helps to cut down cost of parts.
---Design Skill Level---
As far as putting together the LM1036 circuit the datasheet reference circuit is good enough. It gives you plenty of information to make a fully working circuit. The only things you may want to play with are the bass/treble capacitors and the output capactors. Regarding the output capacitors if you choose too high of a value on you may run into that "idle motorcycle engine effect" as well as harsh DC filtering. If you choose too low of a value then you may risk sacrificing the amount of bass being boosted. Also if you use your standard Radio Shack copper clad breadboard it may take you anywhere from 2-4 hours of assembly. It's a very simple circuit although it's the cramming of parts in a small space that requires you to spend a lot of time being a little creative without being sloppy.
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Old 29th December 2010, 05:58 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tanooki2003 View Post
Greetings

The past challenges I have ran into with the LM1036 and a power amplifier is that upon power cutoff on the preamp you will hear an annoying pop. Also you need to make a very critical choice of output capacitors on the preamp output stage or otherwise you might get what I call the "idle motorcycle engine effect" when cranking up the volume. That's when you will a rhythmic popping sound like an idled motorcycle in the background, not very loud, but darn annoying as heck.

Hi, can you give the solution for the "idle motorcycle engine effect". I was thinking to throw this chip away for the noise. Thanks in advance.
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Old 29th December 2010, 10:34 PM   #6
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The "idle mocicle effect" is most likely "motorboating sound", caused by insufficient powersupply decoupling between power- and pre-amps. Heavier electrolytics may solve the problem but often, especially in DIY, it is poor grounding technique (ground-loops).
The "pop" on power-down is solved by an AC powered relay that cuts the line to the speakers (insert a resistive load instead to prevent oscillation?) befor the DC rail goes down.
E
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Old 30th December 2010, 04:19 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mickeymoose View Post
The "idle mocicle effect" is most likely "motorboating sound", caused by insufficient powersupply decoupling between power- and pre-amps. Heavier electrolytics may solve the problem but often, especially in DIY, it is poor grounding technique (ground-loops).
The "pop" on power-down is solved by an AC powered relay that cuts the line to the speakers (insert a resistive load instead to prevent oscillation?) befor the DC rail goes down.
Ok, thanks dude. I got your point for the POP noise during switch off. But need more help in "motorboating sound". Please give me the diagram or parts detail you used for stopping this. If you have changed any Cap value or something else...

I liked the sound quality and BOOST CUT level of the chip very much but the noises.

The system I used:
1. On tone control PCB 0.1 mfd and 100 mfd caps for filtering.
2. Tone control Board PSU has 16V DC > 1000 mfd/25V > LM7812 > 220mfd/25V and .1 mfd
3. Tone control board input cap = 1 mfd/63V electrolytic, output cap 10mfd/40V electrolytic.
4. Power amp used = LM4766T with +-28V supply.

Also I am attaching the files I followed for this preamp.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Schematic.jpg (71.4 KB, 1118 views)
Attached Files
File Type: pdf LM1036N PCB 1.pdf (37.4 KB, 530 views)
File Type: doc LM1036N by Lincor[ I followed this file].doc (104.0 KB, 333 views)
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Old 30th December 2010, 04:34 AM   #8
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I am also attaching some pitures, these may help you.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg LM1036N_1.jpg (101.5 KB, 1052 views)
File Type: jpg LM1036N_2.jpg (97.5 KB, 1028 views)
File Type: jpg LM1036N_3.jpg (161.6 KB, 1016 views)
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Old 30th December 2010, 06:18 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diptangshu View Post
Ok, thanks dude. I got your point for the POP noise during switch off. But need more help in "motorboating sound". Please give me the diagram or parts detail you used for stopping this. If you have changed any Cap value or something else...

I liked the sound quality and BOOST CUT level of the chip very much but the noises.

The system I used:
1. On tone control PCB 0.1 mfd and 100 mfd caps for filtering.
2. Tone control Board PSU has 16V DC > 1000 mfd/25V > LM7812 > 220mfd/25V and .1 mfd
3. Tone control board input cap = 1 mfd/63V electrolytic, output cap 10mfd/40V electrolytic.
4. Power amp used = LM4766T with +-28V supply.

Also I am attaching the files I followed for this preamp.
Hi diptangshu,

I think I can be of some help with your preamp circuit. It definitely sounds like you have a relatively decent setup, we just need to get you past the "motorboating sound" issue.

This is actually somewhat simple to achieve. It's just a matter of changing 4 capacitors.
Now for the preamp input caps I used a 1MFD electrolytic capacitor. For the preamp output capacitors (this is where trial and error may come in) In my setup I went from a 10MFD to a 0.47MFD electrolytic capacitor (I had a choice of either 0.33MFD or 0.47MFD). I know it may seem like a small MFD value but trust me on this one. Someone may be able to explain the technical reasoning behind this better than I can but here is what i have observed:
When i use a higher MFD value, just enough to make the annoyance somewhat stop, I have noticed that when playing a music track with a good 'pop' type bass beat (not a rumbling low boom type bass), I have noticed the speaker cone wobbling in an unusual way, kind of like a bouncy car suspension. It has a ripple effect to heavy beats. It really was supposed to be an instantaneous beat. If i cranked up the volume to a relatively loud level during these beats it would once again start that annoying 'motorboating sound' once again as i turned it back down. I've also noticed that the 'motorboating sound' is sort of like a feedback. Me being a late 70's and early 80's home audio and ghetto blaster "boombox" fanatic I know this ultra low wobbling of the speaker cone during beats like that usually would require a subsonic filter. The cheap and easy way of creating a subsonic filter would be to just lower the preamp output capacitor values. SO instead of my initial choice of using a 10MFD capacitor, i lowered it to 0.47MFD.

In addition of killing that annoying issue I took the time to put a zener diode on the the VCC+ line and added a filter capacitor (1000 MDF) on the V+ power input for the preamp (all on the preamp PCB) to further isolate any possible voltage feedback to the power amp. I'm not sure if that is verbally correct but i'm sure you and most can somewhat understand what I am trying to say. All I can say is that it worked for me and has not bothered me ever since.

Try those values and let me know if that helped you out. Also try adding the zener diode on the VCC+ voltage line input to the preamp for the added isolation.http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif
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Old 30th December 2010, 06:24 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mickeymoose View Post
The "idle mocicle effect" is most likely "motorboating sound", caused by insufficient powersupply decoupling between power- and pre-amps. Heavier electrolytics may solve the problem but often, especially in DIY, it is poor grounding technique (ground-loops).
The "pop" on power-down is solved by an AC powered relay that cuts the line to the speakers (insert a resistive load instead to prevent oscillation?) befor the DC rail goes down.
E
Normally I would use a relay but this being a battery operated boombox I wanted to go a different route while conserving "some" energy. I just simply used my transistor switching delay circuit to keep the power to the preamp on 5 seconds after the power amp's stand-by circuit kicks on.
I am, however, open to any decent ground loop solutions that you might have. My Memorex boombox is not quite a finalized project yet.
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