John Curl's Blowtorch preamplifier part II

[Chris Hornbeck]

Well, I'm usually wrong. But just wait til they come for _your_ favorite music with their digitally clipped remasters. Bet you'll be a "cold dead hands" guy too!

Thanks,
Chris

[fas42]

Originally Posted by john curl

Everyone, I would like to point out that many, many people still do not really like the sound of digital, including me. It has been this way for the past 35 years, at least.

And that's so sad ...

I first got the good stuff, satisfying sound from digital, CD, over 25 years ago, and knew from then on that it was all about the implementation, as others here have stated. At times I have been staggered by how gratingly and tediously unpleasant very expensive digital playback can sound, and there's no reason for that; apart from the fact that many see top notch measurements routinely achieved and claim that therefore all is solved, nothing more needs or can be done. Well, there is just a bit more to it than that: digital is a hard taskmaster, and if you don't treat her right, she'll bite you in the bum. Or bore you to death ...

Frank

[Ken Newton]

Originally Posted by fas42

And that's so sad ...

I first got the good stuff, satisfying sound from digital, CD, over 25 years ago, and knew from then on that it was all about the implementation, as others here have stated. At times I have been staggered by how gratingly and tediously unpleasant very expensive digital playback can sound, and there's no reason for that; apart from the fact that many see top notch measurements routinely achieved and claim that therefore all is solved, nothing more needs or can be done. Well, there is just a bit more to it than that: digital is a hard taskmaster, and if you don't treat her right, she'll bite you in the bum. Or bore you to death ...

Frank

Do tell. Exactly what digital set up provided you with satisfying CD playback over 25 years ago? Which would have been around 1987, only about five years after the introduction of the format.

[bcarso]

Originally Posted by Chris Hornbeck

Listen to any of the 2008 Van Morrison reissues and tell me that even 8 bits is needed anymore. Or recent EmmyLou Harris remasters, or lots of others. Sinful.

Chris

This too shall pass.

Whether it will do so while we are still alive is an open question.

[bcarso]

Originally Posted by fas42

And that's so sad ...

I first got the good stuff, satisfying sound from digital, CD, over 25 years ago, and knew from then on that it was all about the implementation, as others here have stated. At times I have been staggered by how gratingly and tediously unpleasant very expensive digital playback can sound, and there's no reason for that; apart from the fact that many see top notch measurements routinely achieved and claim that therefore all is solved, nothing more needs or can be done. Well, there is just a bit more to it than that: digital is a hard taskmaster, and if you don't treat her right, she'll bite you in the bum. Or bore you to death ...

Frank

One of the earliest digital recordings was the "Cleveland Winds" doing Holst and Handel and Bach, under the baton of Freddie Fennell, with Stockham's 50k 16 bit sampling box. But I suspect he and his folks really labored over the hardware to ensure monotonicity. Even with the sample rate conversions the stuff sounds o.k. to me today, if not the greatest ever. But then I do love the Holst, so I'm inclined to forgive.

[Ken Newton]

Originally Posted by Chris Hornbeck

WRT John's scepticism, let me just say that the mathematical result of an ideal bandlimited, properly dithered A/D/A conversion is a exact replica (in all respects, at all levels including below the smallest bit, and at all frequencies - exact) of the original, plus a small noise, plus a time delay. Period. That's the ideal.

To make progress in this field we need to keep in mind that observed imperfections are not fundamental to the A/D/A conversion, but are instead artifacts of a particular implementation.

Thanks, as always,
Chris

Yes, perfect sound forever, in the frequency-domain. Chris, now tell us about the time-domain distortion inherent to ideal bandlimited sampling and reconstruction.

[fas42]

Originally Posted by Ken Newton

Do tell. Exactly what digital set up provided you with satisfying CD playback over 25 years ago? Which would have been around 1987, only about five years after the introduction of the format.

As I've made clear many times, it's all about worrying about the small stuff that makes it happen. And simplifying. The system was a Yamaha CDX1100, the top of line unit for the day with digital volume control, directly driving a Perreaux power amp, and B&W bookshelf speaker. This was all hard wired, from the power feed in the room wall socket right the way through to the speaker drivers. A ritual of constantly finding and eliminating little weaknesses was absolutely essential, and still only guaranteed top notch performance for a relatively short period of time, the sound quality would slowly degrade following a process of effectively resetting the electronics.

But it was enough to make me aware of what could be achieved. Back then I knew far less than now, so the situation now is a lot more in hand ...

Frank

[jcx]

Yes, perfect sound forever, in the frequency-domain. Chris, now tell us about the time-domain distortion inherent to ideal bandlimited sampling and reconstruction.

sure - just list all of the properly blinded, psychoacoustically controlled listening tests that shows they're audible with music - even for 10% of the listening population

after all shouldn't "night and day" differences be able to AB/Xed?

[Chris Hornbeck]

Originally Posted by Ken Newton

Yes, perfect sound forever, in the frequency-domain. Chris, now tell us about the time-domain distortion inherent to ideal bandlimited sampling and reconstruction.

There is none. The bandlimiting itself can cause variable group delay issues, depending on implementation, but it's not inherent in the A/D/A conversion process.

I know I must sound like a broken record, but we need to keep focussed on the real issues. And yes, I do still have over fifty feet of vinyl records and a good player. But I certainly wouldn't choose to buy a new vinyl record now rather than a CD if both were correctly mastered.

Funny, nobody ever complains about the group delay issues of vinyl records, although they're well understood.

Thanks,
Chris

[abraxalito]

Originally Posted by Chris Hornbeck

There is none.

So you have an ideal brickwall AAF with no overshoot in the time domain whatsoever?