John Curl's Blowtorch preamplifier part II

[Joshua_G]

Originally Posted by janneman

Well, you can't. Simple as that. That's been proven by whole libraries of research reports in the last century or so. Do you really think you can throw all that aside just by saying 'yes I can'?

Are saying that no one, under no condition and under no test procedure can have a genuine impression of the SQ of audio system, free of the Placebo Effect?

[Joshua_G]

Originally Posted by janneman

I can also disclose that I select my equipment as well on what is probably a combination of reputation, technical performance, how it sounds to me, and the perceived value for money. Maybe more; it's hard to objectively know how one's selection process works in detail.

Thank you for putting yourself in the open, I appreciate it very much.

The consideration of value for money is obvious and I believe that everyone, save possibly few millionaires, have that consideration.

However I'm unclear about the first part.
If you don't trust your listening ability, why use it?
If you do trust your listening ability, why use reputation and technical specifications?

A personal side note.
I'm extremely suspicious about reputation.
There is the very well known case of Lexicon selling their BD-30 Blu-ray Player for $3,500 which turned out to be nothing else than Oppo BDP-83 (MSRP $500), placed in their own box: Lexicon BD-30 Blu-ray Player (Oppo BDP-83 Clone) Review — Reviews and News from Audioholics . I've seen other products by manufacturers of high reputation having pure garbage inside their shining boxes.

[Joshua_G]

Originally Posted by Soundminded

Once upon a time when I was an audiophile, the common wisdom and advice was to tell people to select audio components based on what sounded to them like live music. … I realized none of it did.

Indeed, no sound reproduction system, at any cost, sounds like live music. However some systems get closer than others. For me, live music is what shapes my taste and what serves me as a reference.

Originally Posted by Soundminded

Today, I think few people hear live music anymore

I attend live concerts on a regular basis, about once to twice a month. Mostly classical music, some times jazz.

Originally Posted by Soundminded

What I find not okay is that the price of much equipment in the category that is called "high end" has little to do with its intrinsic worth either insofar as the cost to research and manufacture it or by its performance compared to much less expensive alternatives.

I agree with you that the price of most audio gear labeled as "high end" is inflates, without any reasonable proportion to its' production cost.

As for cheaper alternatives, doing the same: that depends on what you are looking for in audio gear. Some people are satisfied with mp3. Others have different taste and preferences.

[Joshua_G]

Originally Posted by janneman

The point is, unless you do a controlled test, you cannot be sure whether there indeed IS an audible difference or not.

Did you choose the components for your sound system by controlled tests?
If yes, can you please share the procedure you use?

[jacco vermeulen]

Originally Posted by Joshua_G

the price of MOST audio gear labeled as "high end" is inflates, without any reasonable proportion to its' production cost.

Try to back that up with figures and facts, instead of hear say.

[Joshua_G]

Originally Posted by john curl

Joshua, I hope you see this more clearly. What we are debating against is a version of 'reality' that is akin to a 'religious' reality, generated by certain people in the audio business who sincerely feel that we cannot trust what we hear, as we will be overwhelmed by internal subjective biases. Kind of liking the sound of your own child's singing voice, when everybody else 'cringes'.
Of course, they are correct, bias is everywhere. You and I must do what we do for ourselves, and not try to PROVE our experiences to anyone else, least they be diverted into investing extra time and money into a 'dead end'.

John, I'm well aware of what goes on. I'm not trying to convince anyone, I'm only trying to have civilized discussion in order to explore the issue.

[Joshua_G]

Originally Posted by soundmeister

I have repaired thousands of amplifiers in my time, and once they are working I listen to them before sending them back to their owners.
I listen in a familiar environment, on the same speakers, using the same cd player and the same familiar music tracks.
I have no attachment to any of these amplifiers, and no expectations.....I run them up and just listen.
Over the range of consumer, audiophile and pro amplifiers is a whole range of sounds.
Within this range, there are many amplifiers that are subtly dirty, disturbing, irritating etc, and every now and then there are amplifiers that sound 'right'.

I think everybody here concedes that amplifiers sound different, so what is this big deal about not being able to tell them apart ?.

When it comes down to essentially distortionless (blameless) amplifiers it does become more difficult to tell them apart, and this is where listening to nuances is the key, like how cymbals are reproduced, or how bass notes are distinct or blurred, or how realistically vocals are reproduced etc for example.
This can come down to repeated listening to particular cymbal hits, or particular bass chords, or particular vocal words or phrases to define amplifier sonic characteristics.
Distinguishing amplifiers (or sources, or speakers) is very much dependant on the listening skill of the listener, and this comes with practice and experience.
Blind test subjects need to pass a listening skills test before being included in any DB survey.

Dave.

Thank you, Dave.
I couldn't say it better.

[Joshua_G]

Originally Posted by jacco vermeulen

Try to back that up with figures and facts, instead of hear say.

Somehow I don't feel obliged to do so.

[Johnloudb]

Originally Posted by Joshua_G

Are saying that no one, under no condition and under no test procedure can have a genuine impression of the SQ of audio system, free of the Placebo Effect?

You can't be free of the placebo effect ... conditioned reflexes are just a part of us. But that doesn't mean the ear/brain doesn't work. It works really well.

If you've ever taken a familiar path to work and maybe had your mind on something else ... you might find you can't remember the trip.

We can only consciously focus on one thing at a time and the rest is the subconscious and conditioned reflexes. Amazing people aren't wrecking all over the place. Of course, if you're looking at your cell phone conditioned reflexes don't do you much good.

Audio is just a fun hobby to most of us. And to many audiophiles knowing what we're listening to is part of that. Nothing wrong with that.

I mean people can learn and maybe even hear things that some others don't think they can.

Only a blind test will prove it. But, so what.

John

[Joshua_G]

Originally Posted by Johnloudb

You can't be free of the placebo effect ... conditioned reflexes are just a part of us.

I never said I can be free of the placebo effect, all I said was that there ways to neutralize it. Some medicines actually work, in spite of and on top of the placebo effect. Those medicines that actually work don't make the placebo effect go away, they simply work on top of it.

Let me give you a very crude example.
I once hooked up to my setup a highly credited power amp. It had loud hum. (The source of the hum was a problem with the interconnect wires). However, the hum was actually there, it was really there, in spite of my initial expectations for quiet sound. This is but crude example for real phenomenon being heard, a phenomenon opposed to the initial expectations. Now, if someone comes and tells me that I cannot possibly detect hum in my system because of the placebo effect, all I can do is smile quietly. No, I'm not free of the placebo effect, but in spite of the placebo effect and on top of it, there are (sometimes) real and actual phenomena I actually hear.