John Curl's Blowtorch preamplifier part II

[Johnloudb]

Originally Posted by Joachim Gerhard

An old Thorenz or something can not be compared to what is availlable now. If you never heard such a system over an extended period at home you can not judge about it.

You dissing my rig! Yes, it is not the best. Lots of room for improvement with a better cart and phono preamp. Still this Thorens was a top LP turner in the 70's. Even has a built in speed strobe which is nice feature. I still hear people comment that it compares favorably to the Linn - LP12. But, I've never compared it to anything else, in my home.

I've heard the LP12 at a shop years ago on some Wilson Watt Puppies and it was good. I like our setup better. I've also heard top LP playback on some Apogee Duets years ago at a local audiophile shop "Audition", and it was really, really nice.

I've heard lots of good analog on top gear at shows too, and we have a very nice system overall and the LP playback it very nice with good records. I mean, I don't think you got to spend $10,000+ to hear good analog. If you do, well forget it!

John

[Joshua_G]

Originally Posted by pooge

Not at all. Playability and responsiveness to PLAYER INPUT are large factors in choosing an instrument. Therefore, your analogy to choosing an instrument is faulty.

Isn't sound quality a major consideration here? Are Stradivarius violins chosen due to their playability and responsiveness, or due to their sound? Or should we perform blind tests on violins in order to know which one of them is a Stradivarius?

[Joshua_G]

Originally Posted by pooge

So why lump all of them together to support your logic? How many of those engineers are also hampered by bean counters and marketing departments?

I'm trying to get your point.
Do you say that listening evaluations aren't necessary for audio gear?

[jacco vermeulen]

Originally Posted by Joshua_G

Indeed.

First time we agree on something, Mr G.

At the risk of sounding arrogant, without solid lengthy exposure, a time window go-listen is futile, DBT or not.
One can stick 10 idiots into a DBT, the outcome will still be that of a bunch of fools.

Same deal as with automobiles, any step up from a sheit car will sooner feel over-expensive than obvious.
Drive a nice set of wheels for 6 months, then get ready for the shock when you get into the old piece of crab again.

[pooge]

Originally Posted by Joshua_G

I'm trying to get your point.
Do you say that listening evaluations aren't necessary for audio gear?

No I'm not.

[john curl]

Joshua, that is WHY I am still in business. More than once in my engineering career, I have gotten so dependent on my measurements and topologies, that I did NOT listen to the final product. Guess what happened? Hint: twice in power amp design with Parasound. Can you guess which model numbers?

[Johnloudb]

Originally Posted by john curl

It is NOT distortion, it is in spite of some audible distortion. This can be proven by listening to a test record with the SAME music on both channels, BUT one side is digitized before being cut on the record.

Yeah, I agree with that. I have some classical music "Digital" records and I can't say they sound all that good, kind of sterile. The ones from the 60's and 70's often sound best.

[Joshua_G]

Originally Posted by pooge

No I'm not.

I'm glad we agree on the necessity of listening tests.

[soundmeister]

Originally Posted by Joshua_G

There may be a difference.
Some engineers are satisfied with "solid engineering practice" only, without bothering to listen to the outcome. Those engineers may miss the core issue with audio design.

99% of audio is built with exactly those outlooks and constraints - standard T&M is the accepted publishable criterium, however those figures say little about the actual listening experience.

Dave.

[Steve Eddy]

Originally Posted by john curl

Ivor was a 'fool' to be 'trapped' like that in a listening test that is set up to generate 'null' results, unless one 'cheats'. Ivor has had to live that one bit of overconfidence in his own listening ability for many years.
This is WHY I do NOT do ABX tests. I can't pass them, either. Neither can John Atkinson, or just about anyone else.
Are we deaf, but arrogant? Are we 'fools' to believe in our own listening comparisons?

No, you're just human.

I know that's difficult, and in some cases impossible for some people to come to terms with. But that's nothing a small dose of humility can't cure.

se