Hi Steven,
There are tube fundamentalists who swear that tube power amps don't soften bass transients either ... so I await Jens' test with interest.
BTW, your statement "There is really no provision for a separate subwoofer output like one could do with the GK-1. Although that being said, it is possible to branch an output off the circuit, add a capacitor and grounding resistor and have a separate output, but that is not a feature of the design." seems to me to be splitting hairs.
Hugh provides a convenient wire "take-off point" at R13, where he has soldered the res lead across several "trace-blobs" so you can easily attach the wire that goes to the sub-out RCAs. But yes, you have to mount the series O/P cap off the PCB.
Regards,
Andy
No, I am not confusing anything. We are not talking about power amps here. But then, I've heard many a tube preamp with spongy bass over the years
Basically, what I am saying is that since the GK-1 and the GK-2 have the same tube output stages (according to Hugh), I find it strange that I heard a difference in the bass precision when comparing the SS (Sub out) and tube outputs in the GK-1 when your experience with the two outputs in the GK-2 is different.
I am not discounting your experience, because there could a number reasons for it, including that the circuits in the GK-2 simply "fit" so much better together that there simply is no discernible difference
As I said, I will try it out in my system as well, which will be under slightly different conditions. I may well come to the same conclusion as you did ....
Cheers,
Jens
Hi Steven,
There are tube fundamentalists who swear that tube power amps don't soften bass transients either ... so I await Jens' test with interest.
BTW, your statement "There is really no provision for a separate subwoofer output like one could do with the GK-1. Although that being said, it is possible to branch an output off the circuit, add a capacitor and grounding resistor and have a separate output, but that is not a feature of the design." seems to me to be splitting hairs.
Hugh provides a convenient wire "take-off point" at R13, where he has soldered the res lead across several "trace-blobs" so you can easily attach the wire that goes to the sub-out RCAs. But yes, you have to mount the series O/P cap off the PCB.
Regards,
Andy
Andy,
I know exactly what Hugh has done!
There is no provision on the circuit board for a second output. Thus he accommodated with a modification from the grid stopper resistor. When we were getting the unit operational we discussed doing this as we were still thinking with a GK-1 reference. We determined that it could be done, but was not optimal and would require a complete redo of the board. When/if a new board is done for the preamp, it will likely have a provision of some sort for a second output. User modifications tend to lead to needless difficulties for all that are involved, and are best avoided.
No, I am not confusing anything. We are not talking about power amps here. But then, I've heard many a tube preamp with spongy bass over the years
Basically, what I am saying is that since the GK-1 and the GK-2 have the same tube output stages (according to Hugh), I find it strange that I heard a difference in the bass precision when comparing the SS (Sub out) and tube outputs in the GK-1 when your experience with the two outputs in the GK-2 is different.
I am not discounting your experience, because there could a number reasons for it, including that the circuits in the GK-2 simply "fit" so much better together that there simply is no discernible difference
As I said, I will try it out in my system as well, which will be under slightly different conditions. I may well come to the same conclusion as you did ....
Cheers,
Jens
Jens,
We all hear what we hear, want to hear, etc.
Yours is a special situation where the "sub" out is not really used as a subwoofer output, but rather a bass output. That is completely different and fairly unique to you.
What you really need is a preamp with 2 buffer stages, with the second one being a simple solid state buffer for the bass.
My situation is exactly the same as Jens', Steven - it comes from using speakers with active XOs.
I - and Jens - do not need a buffer for the bass (Sub) output, because our ICs between GK-2 and active XOs are not long. In my previous house, I had 11m ICs and did have to implement a ss buffer for the "Sub out" RCAs, in my GK-1.
My new environment doesn't have such an extreme IC requirement between GK-2 and active XOs and the bass sounds sensational, coming straight off R13, so I have left out this buffer with my GK-2.
Regards,
Andy
I probably should have posted this in one of my previous posts, but failing that I will do so here.
Specifically the major differences in what is being discussed here between GK-1 and GK-2 are that at the grid stopper in the GK-1 there are only a few millivolts and in the GK-2 there are 50 volts. That's why you cannot do a simple sub out in the GK-2, like as in the GK-1. The voltage needs to be accommodated for somehow, which is not difficult, but this requires an additional modification.
Also, while the buffer in the GK-2 is a small signal tube with cathode follower the full circuits are not the same.
Specifically the major differences in what is being discussed here between GK-1 and GK-2 are that at the grid stopper in the GK-1 there are only a few millivolts and in the GK-2 there are 50 volts. That's why you cannot do a simple sub out in the GK-2, like as in the GK-1. The voltage needs to be accommodated for somehow, which is not difficult, but this requires an additional modification.
Also, while the buffer in the GK-2 is a small signal tube with cathode follower the full circuits are not the same.
Hi Steven,
Well, Hugh suggested I take "Sub out" from R13 - so that is what I have done.
However, what you cannot do with the GK-2 (I found out the hard way and it took me 3 weeks to resolve this problem) is run the "Sub out" wire from R13 to the "Sub out" connection on the GK-1 Relay board / Manual Switch board ... because this point on the PCBs is also connected to the "Mute" relay/switch.
What you need to do with the GK-2 is run the "Sub out" wire directly from R13 to the Sub output RCAs ... and then run a separate wire from the volume pot wiper to the "Mute" connection on the Relay board / Manual Switch board.
This works perfectly - and, as I said, there is no issue with the GK-2 "Sub out" bass that I can hear.
Regards,
Andy
Let me offer my design considerations.
When I did the tube buffer on the GK1/GK2 with Darl back in 2001 we devised a way of conferring bass impact without depleting the wonderful, airy romance of the midrange and top end.
Our listening test showed that tight, slam bass tended to eviscerate the midrange and the top end, which finished up sounding like very good solid state.
Thus a frequency compensation was needed to give the best of all both worlds.
On th GK1 we added a sub-out option for that who wanted to experiment with the sound. It was easy to do with the GK1, rather differently for the GK2, so I do not recommend any change for the GK2 although it is clearly possible to implement and I privately spoke with both Steve, Jens and Andy to arrange this option for bass output with no the tube buffer.
All of these decisions are subjective, based on Darl and my thoughts, and latterly, with conversations with Jens and Andy. After all, the preamp is designed for maximum pleasure for listening, but it's important to realise that people do not indeed hear the same things....
Cheers,
Hugh
When I did the tube buffer on the GK1/GK2 with Darl back in 2001 we devised a way of conferring bass impact without depleting the wonderful, airy romance of the midrange and top end.
Our listening test showed that tight, slam bass tended to eviscerate the midrange and the top end, which finished up sounding like very good solid state.
Thus a frequency compensation was needed to give the best of all both worlds.
On th GK1 we added a sub-out option for that who wanted to experiment with the sound. It was easy to do with the GK1, rather differently for the GK2, so I do not recommend any change for the GK2 although it is clearly possible to implement and I privately spoke with both Steve, Jens and Andy to arrange this option for bass output with no the tube buffer.
All of these decisions are subjective, based on Darl and my thoughts, and latterly, with conversations with Jens and Andy. After all, the preamp is designed for maximum pleasure for listening, but it's important to realise that people do not indeed hear the same things....
Cheers,
Hugh
Having at last got my GK-2 working (in its loverley new case) and run in, I have to agree with everything you've said, Jens - and couldn't have said it any better myself.
Good as the GK-1 board was (and mine went to a new home - and the buyer is rapt with it), the GK-2 does everything better!
I've been waiting for this day for a very long time but well done, Hugh. Anyone with a GK-1 should make the effort to upgrade. You won't regret you did.
Regards,
Andy
PS: The case comes from a great Italian supplier - Hi-Fi 2000 contenitori per l'elettronica, case modding HTPC, Galaxy, rack, DIYaudio, computer cases, front panel express, knobs,milled Handles, milled fronts, hi-end,. The ebony knobs were made by Duc ('lovetube' on SNA).
Wow Andy, nice pre!!! Very nice!
The GK2 really interest me.
BTW, what model is that source selector?
Thanks
Do
Hi Do,
The 5-way source selector is the one that Hugh supplies with the GK-1/GK-2 kit ... I am sorry but I forget the name (a well-known brand which I believe is made in the UK).
The case comes from here:
modushop.biz
Regards,
Andy
Just a small update on the discussion previously in this thread about bass quality from the GK-2 tube output.
Some of us were having doubts about the bass precision if using the tube output in a multi-amped system, such as mine or Andy's, and I promised to do some testing in my system.
So, what I did was simply to tell my electronically controlled (via PC) digital filter/DSP units to disregard the signal coming from the separate bass output on the GK-2 that was designed according to directions from Hugh. I left the RCA plug for the bass output in place on the GK-2 to be able to switch back and forth quickly
Before making the change, I made sure to listen to some well-known tracks, where I know how the bass sounds and is presented.
After making the change, I listened to the same tracks again. My initial impression was that bass out of the tube output was a little bit "darker", but it was a very, very small difference. Mind you, I am not saying that this is better or worse, just that it was different! I also seemed to sense a slight difference in the timing of the bass, but again - this was a very small difference, and again - I don't really know if I thought that it was better or worse, just different.
So, now I have been listening to my system with the bass running from the tube output for some weeks, and after listening to quite a lot of music I feel I am about ready to switch back to having the bass being run from the special bass output on the GK-2. When I do that, I will note any differences and then I will listen for some weeks yet again with this setting, before trying out some quick switching back and forth.
Andy mentioned something about interconnects not being very long in his and my systems. Well, everything is relative and compared to the 11-metre interconnects that Andy said he used to have, my 3-metre interconnects are really short!
The interconnects run from the GK-2 outputs to the Ground Sound x-over/DSP units, which are inside each speaker. The interconnects are made up of triple Mundorf silver/gold, teflon-covered 0.5 mm wires in a standard braid. The braided wires are covered with a tinned, braided copper shield, which is then again covered with a white PTFE braid. The interconnects are terminated at the GK-2 end with silver Bullet Plugs. At the filter/DSP end they are soldered directly onto the filter PCBs. One of the three wires and the tinned copper braid act as ground, one wire comes from the GK-2 tube out and goes to input 1 on the filter/DSP units, and one wire comes from the bass output on the GK-2 and goes to input 2 on the filter/DSP units.
I will let you know how the rest of my listening tests go
Cheers,
Jens
Some of us were having doubts about the bass precision if using the tube output in a multi-amped system, such as mine or Andy's, and I promised to do some testing in my system.
So, what I did was simply to tell my electronically controlled (via PC) digital filter/DSP units to disregard the signal coming from the separate bass output on the GK-2 that was designed according to directions from Hugh. I left the RCA plug for the bass output in place on the GK-2 to be able to switch back and forth quickly
Before making the change, I made sure to listen to some well-known tracks, where I know how the bass sounds and is presented.
After making the change, I listened to the same tracks again. My initial impression was that bass out of the tube output was a little bit "darker", but it was a very, very small difference. Mind you, I am not saying that this is better or worse, just that it was different! I also seemed to sense a slight difference in the timing of the bass, but again - this was a very small difference, and again - I don't really know if I thought that it was better or worse, just different.
So, now I have been listening to my system with the bass running from the tube output for some weeks, and after listening to quite a lot of music I feel I am about ready to switch back to having the bass being run from the special bass output on the GK-2. When I do that, I will note any differences and then I will listen for some weeks yet again with this setting, before trying out some quick switching back and forth.
Andy mentioned something about interconnects not being very long in his and my systems. Well, everything is relative and compared to the 11-metre interconnects that Andy said he used to have, my 3-metre interconnects are really short!
The interconnects run from the GK-2 outputs to the Ground Sound x-over/DSP units, which are inside each speaker. The interconnects are made up of triple Mundorf silver/gold, teflon-covered 0.5 mm wires in a standard braid. The braided wires are covered with a tinned, braided copper shield, which is then again covered with a white PTFE braid. The interconnects are terminated at the GK-2 end with silver Bullet Plugs. At the filter/DSP end they are soldered directly onto the filter PCBs. One of the three wires and the tinned copper braid act as ground, one wire comes from the GK-2 tube out and goes to input 1 on the filter/DSP units, and one wire comes from the bass output on the GK-2 and goes to input 2 on the filter/DSP units.
I will let you know how the rest of my listening tests go
Cheers,
Jens
Hello Hugh,
Out of DIy for a while and came back to hear about health issues. I sincerely hope you are doing better. Over the years of my audio hobby, the AKSA connection has been paramount. Recently, I replaced my Linkwitz Orions with the newer LX521. I was asked to demo them and decided to get out my GK-1 that had been shelved since my move to Austin (8 years !!!!!). When I last heard the GK-1, I had some hum issues that couldn't be eliminated even though the overall sound was sublime.
I was ecstatic to see that by shorting R2, I could potentially eliminate the hum. I added a shorting wire and tested with a frequency generator and scope. No signs of hum. Put into my system. WOW. This is audio reproduction nirvana.
I am drinking a great glass of red wine in toast to Hugh Dean!!!!!!!!!!!!! Here's to many years of health and good life.
Oh, just added. How do I get my greedy paws on a GK-2 ??? Would love to build or buy. Hugh, are these available ? I would be willing to build and send across USA....
Best Regards,
Dale Herman
Out of DIy for a while and came back to hear about health issues. I sincerely hope you are doing better. Over the years of my audio hobby, the AKSA connection has been paramount. Recently, I replaced my Linkwitz Orions with the newer LX521. I was asked to demo them and decided to get out my GK-1 that had been shelved since my move to Austin (8 years !!!!!). When I last heard the GK-1, I had some hum issues that couldn't be eliminated even though the overall sound was sublime.
I was ecstatic to see that by shorting R2, I could potentially eliminate the hum. I added a shorting wire and tested with a frequency generator and scope. No signs of hum. Put into my system. WOW. This is audio reproduction nirvana.
I am drinking a great glass of red wine in toast to Hugh Dean!!!!!!!!!!!!! Here's to many years of health and good life.
Oh, just added. How do I get my greedy paws on a GK-2 ??? Would love to build or buy. Hugh, are these available ? I would be willing to build and send across USA....
Best Regards,
Dale Herman
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Just a small update on the discussion previously in this thread about bass quality from the GK-2 tube output.
Some of us were having doubts about the bass precision if using the tube output in a multi-amped system, such as mine or Andy's, and I promised to do some testing in my system.
So, what I did was simply to tell my electronically controlled (via PC) digital filter/DSP units to disregard the signal coming from the separate bass output on the GK-2 that was designed according to directions from Hugh. I left the RCA plug for the bass output in place on the GK-2 to be able to switch back and forth quickly
Before making the change, I made sure to listen to some well-known tracks, where I know how the bass sounds and is presented.
After making the change, I listened to the same tracks again. My initial impression was that bass out of the tube output was a little bit "darker", but it was a very, very small difference. Mind you, I am not saying that this is better or worse, just that it was different! I also seemed to sense a slight difference in the timing of the bass, but again - this was a very small difference, and again - I don't really know if I thought that it was better or worse, just different.
So, now I have been listening to my system with the bass running from the tube output for some weeks, and after listening to quite a lot of music I feel I am about ready to switch back to having the bass being run from the special bass output on the GK-2. When I do that, I will note any differences and then I will listen for some weeks yet again with this setting, before trying out some quick switching back and forth.
Andy mentioned something about interconnects not being very long in his and my systems. Well, everything is relative and compared to the 11-metre interconnects that Andy said he used to have, my 3-metre interconnects are really short!
The interconnects run from the GK-2 outputs to the Ground Sound x-over/DSP units, which are inside each speaker. The interconnects are made up of triple Mundorf silver/gold, teflon-covered 0.5 mm wires in a standard braid. The braided wires are covered with a tinned, braided copper shield, which is then again covered with a white PTFE braid. The interconnects are terminated at the GK-2 end with silver Bullet Plugs. At the filter/DSP end they are soldered directly onto the filter PCBs. One of the three wires and the tinned copper braid act as ground, one wire comes from the GK-2 tube out and goes to input 1 on the filter/DSP units, and one wire comes from the bass output on the GK-2 and goes to input 2 on the filter/DSP units.
I will let you know how the rest of my listening tests go
Cheers,
Jens
Just a brief note to say that I have not forgotten about the SS/tube out comparison.
However, a lot of other things have been happening to my system over the last few months, plus I have been extremely busy at work - which all in all means that I have had to postpone this comparison somewhat ...
So, status right now is that I have just about gotten changes to the system under control and will listen to the GK-2 with bass sections running from the tube out for a while yet, but that I will definitely make a switch to running them from the SS out at a later time - and will let everyone know what I think
Cheers,
Jens
First, let me say that I already have a more than good tube preamp. Nevertheless it is time for Steve and Hugh to focus some attention on the GK-2. Any more upgrades to this preamp in 2014? The GK-2 was a mod for the GK-1. Need a new
preamp name. Need a new stand alone line stage built from scratch preamp that people can buy. Steve and Hugh have worked too hard on this preamp and the audio community should hear about it. I am serious about the new name. It is time to make some new preamps in 2014. Don't let all the hard work go to waste.
preamp name. Need a new stand alone line stage built from scratch preamp that people can buy. Steve and Hugh have worked too hard on this preamp and the audio community should hear about it. I am serious about the new name. It is time to make some new preamps in 2014. Don't let all the hard work go to waste.
Ah, A-S, I have been trying to superannuate the GK1 and the newer 2. It's a difficult build, there are some sourcing issues, and it needs enormous care to eliminate hum. And it's hard to make any profit from it; a hybrid is always expensive in parts.
I would be happy to chat about it in email, drop me a line.......
And yes, my wife who came through my health issues and subsequent recuperation deserves huge credit. It's not been easy for her and my daughters, particularly when I spent in a coma connected to a power station for 29 days, never knowing I would live or die.
Valentines is today!
Cheers,
Hugh
I would be happy to chat about it in email, drop me a line.......
And yes, my wife who came through my health issues and subsequent recuperation deserves huge credit. It's not been easy for her and my daughters, particularly when I spent in a coma connected to a power station for 29 days, never knowing I would live or die.
Valentines is today!
Cheers,
Hugh
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