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Naksa

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Even if the question is moot and even if i cant afford $5000 the question can still be posed and answered no? I am curious.
And how do we make precise this notion of being better?

I don't think the prof. is alone in struggling with notions of clear decision making based on ill-defined parameters like "sound quality". Every formally educated bone in our bodies will rail at the proposition that we should throw out the books, go alternate and let whimsy pave the way to our sonic fulfillment.

OK, a little excessive but it is clear to me that some folks cannot or will not make assessments of quality in their product choices. The profusion of popular magazines jammed with opinions to tell us why we should like this or that product over any others says something, I think. Considering the zillions of new and developing products in the electronic gizmo field, it's not surprising that public opinion and thus sales swings more with the editorial than any actual product design and manufacturing wizardry. That goes double, at least, for sound qualityI

I note with some interest how one poster in John Cordell's book thread simply said "Tell us why we should buy your book, Bob" That after hunreds of posts with introductory explanation and rational argument and comparisons with other books already!

My 2c...Over to you Prof. (BTW, how'd you get that appellation?. My family would use it against me as a derogatory term suggesting that I professed much and did little about it! I trust yours has more complimentary origins.)
 
I note with some interest how one poster in John Cordell's book thread simply said "Tell us why we should buy your book, Bob" That after hunreds of posts with introductory explanation and rational argument and comparisons with other books already!

jeez, people obsess and analyse til the world ends - sometimes you just gotta go with your feelings on this. Hundreds of posts about a book, my gosh, with so many other things in life to worry about. I'm simply gobsmacked.
 
I don't think the prof. is alone in struggling with notions of clear decision making based on ill-defined parameters like "sound quality". Every formally educated bone in our bodies will rail at the proposition that we should throw out the books, go alternate and let whimsy pave the way to our sonic fulfillment.

You may well believe in ("clear decision-making based on ill-defined parameters like "sound quality") but I certainly don't. :p If it gets your foot tapping more then you are getting more enjoyment - so that's the one to go for! :D IE. enjoyment is what it's all about, IMO ... you may have to miss out on some aspect, with the toe-tapping component, but if you enjoy it more, you'll cheerfully sacrifice that missing aspect.

It may not be "better" than another component - eg. it may not have as much bass or the treble may not extend to 40K ... but what, for example, is the use of speakers which are flat from 20Hz to 20KHz if they leave you cold when you're listening to them?

BTW, I'd be interested to know what clear parameters you used to select your wife (if you have one). Same situation, IMO - she might look great and have a lot of money ... but if she doesn't stir your heart then there's not much point in being with her. :)

Regards,

Andy
 
Ian,

Let me make clear a number of points here.

1. Any good sounding, reliable amp will abide faithfully to the laws of physics.
2. I was trained as a Science Teacher, and studied quite a bit of electronics, so I'm not about to carouse off to the dark side.
3. The irony of the psychology of numerical appraisal (as first proposed by Laurence Pomeroy, designer of the first Daimler Double 6 in 1926) is that once a measurement system, in fact ANY measurement system, is marketed, it is seized upon as the only legitimate way to assess anything. THD has been cynically abused for years as a figure relevant to sound quality, and in truth most of the legit audio designers will tell you the correlation is poor at best, particularly under about 0.1%, below which any decently designed SS amp lies. And lie it does, too. There is so much more to it.
4. Any almost imperceptible deviation from the norm is always regarded by hard science as reverie on Fantasy Island, and ridicule soon follows. However, Tesla was laughed out of town for his wacky ideas, Edison had no formal training, Banting was regarded as an eccentric fool, and Oppenheimer finished his days prosecuted by government for dissenting views. All non-conformists, all brilliant men. I have designed some non-conventional amps in my time, a trivial contribution in the scheme of things, but if you think this is crossing to the dark side you are very much mistaken.
4. No one is forcing you to buy a NAKSA, or indeed any audio product. I do however concede that if it's an argument of ethics or engineering you want, you might be in for some entertainment!

Cheers,

Hugh
 
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Hmm..thanks Andy. I follow your sentiments fine but I think you are looking at chinks to pigeonhole me as a dreaded Objektivist there. Unfortunately, you just lucked out. Perhaps the quoted phrase was intimidating but I am actually on a fishing expedition here to find out where another's sympathies, doubts etc. really lie.

I hear your criterion for selection but though it has been cribbed across mags and forums for years now, I can't see that that it means anything. It would be no more vague to say that an amp should have magic sound. I played guitar for some years with a DIY valve amp that did take some beating and really set some feet to tapping but there's no way it would translate to a stereo version to play music through, nor even dream that the 10" quad array is going to be a good stereo speaker. It is cute imagery to describe an amplifier as having pace, rhythm and other unlikely qualities but I believe these arise from fancy or err...inducements rather than the obvious basis which is simply sound quality - i.e.The agglomeration of the original signal and all tonal contributions from the reproducing equipment. It just doesn't seem cool, to put it so bluntly though, does it?

Really O/T this, you know...I hope you don't really believe you selected your wife? A thousand evolutionists will turn in their graves at that notion! (no, wait; evolutionists don't believe in the afterlife!) Perhaps if you ask her how she selected you would be a more fruitful question and you may be surprised how objective some are or rather were in their decisions.
 
Really O/T this, you know...I hope you don't really believe you selected your wife? A thousand evolutionists will turn in their graves at that notion! (no, wait; evolutionists don't believe in the afterlife!) Perhaps if you ask her how she selected you would be a more fruitful question and you may be surprised how objective some are or rather were in their decisions.

Ha ha - touche! :D She had no chance to "select" me - I was so in lust, I rushed into her cave, grabbed her by the hair and dragged her to the church on time! :cool: (Nearly) 30 years later ... we're still together. :)

Regards,

Andy
 
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Hugh
Thanks for your reply too. Why do I get the feeling that you are responding to another post at another time by someone else? I can't see that my sympathies for a hesitant member should precipitate such bristling defences nor any prompts for chapter and verse of audio subjectivist doctrine, unless you have just been waiting for a fall guy, of course, and sure, I will be quite happy to oblige. Just don't jump on me for unfounded suspicion's sake nor expect thread visitors to abandon rationality at the forum door.

Re: Numeric appraisal
I did make a point about people seeking such in mags and forums to make their purchasing decisions for them. Did you mistakenly assume that I was approving of that trend? Beware of irrelevance in your points (4) since these guys did make it to the big time in hard science, otherwise we would not be discussing their achievements. (Ok, Edison employed hard scientists, lots of them). All you are in effect saying is that though prominent high achievers, they were subject to human failings and misrepresentations as indeed we all are. It beggars belief that anyone would contemplate anything but numerical quality descriptors in order to create the critical mass of say, a thermonuclear bomb as Oppenheimer's programs intended.

Your points (3) can only refer to marketing, but very old marketing since most mass-market audio products, good or bad haven't used "specsmanship" for many years. Check an amp. brochure: The focus is appearance inside and out with veiled references to the power "under the hood". I can't even find performance specs in some manuals left with me in recent years. Most quote the same THD figure: <.02% and that ranges From $100 specials to Hi-end $5000 + product. I think the manufacturers know which way the wind is blowing. What they have done about it is another matter.
Point (1) What? So do bad ones!
Point (2) On crossing to the dark side, I would not contemplate it either. I understand that the freight, internet and advertising rates are hellishly expensive and amps need retuning back in the the much cooler land of the living.
Point (5) I never got that impression, nor do I wish to do banter over the thin ice of relative subjective expressions. I consider these like some do religion...fleeting, intangible and often interesting only to me.
No, I'm not a schoolchild any more and will not readily bend to the masterly goad.
 
Hello Ian

Yes, most mass-market audio products, good or bad, and most audio magazines reviews are just playing the big marketing game, but giving any specs will not say anything about how the amp will sound. Years ago it was the amps "specs war" and most was showing ultra low distortions figures but they was sounding cold and harsh.

But you Ian, how do you choses your audio gears ?

Bye

Gaetan
 
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Ian,

Your tone was, to me, more than inquiring, I saw it as provocative. This is the NAKSA thread, would you not expect a 'bristling' response (a gross overstatement, you would know when I was 'bristling', and besides, I rarely respond to gross jibes these days!).

I'm not goading you, I would think this is unnecessary and indicates at least as much paranoia on your part as you see in me! However, if you see it as masterly, I'm a little surprised as I regard myself very differently to a master.

Neither of us is schoolboys. I'm sorry you got that impression, never my intention.

THD still dominates the technical literature and a good deal of the advertising. Read the latest technical authors on this stuff; it's the same quest for low THD, although more are now starting to examine each artefact in some detail, a promising development. Specsmanship is alive and well, cf. the Halcro.

As for mistaken assumptions, Ian, I did not read the entire thread, simply took your comments in local context. Did you mean differently?

Now, what is your point? Do you want to hear a NAKSA? I could arrange that. This would put paid to speculation; nothing like a private audition in one own system, eh?

Cheers,

Hugh
 
Do you want to hear a NAKSA? I could arrange that. This would put paid to speculation; nothing like a private audition in one own system, eh?

Yes please thats the only way i would gain any understanding of what it can do. Its all very well reading reviews but i would need first hand experience in my own room. Otherwise it is too expensive to risk buying. I wonder if it could be arranged for me?
 
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Hi Gaetan, 'nice to correspond at last as I appreciate your posts with helpful comments and assistance. Yes, I have difficulty as we all do with selecting equipment to buy. Everything I think I might like is extraordinarily expensive so I don't even get to audition it but I gamble with compromise products and even buy because others rate things highly, to use them like models for measurement and comparison. This is blind purchasing, with little prior evaluation. An example is a Rotel 1060 amp which was a 5 star rater in the UK some years back. No, It's pretty ordinary actually and has a presentation similar to some much older magazine project kits here in Oz. It features a characteristic mirrored, thermally coupled input topology, as did much of their gear for many years. The point is that the amps I built easily knocked it off the shelf. A few people agreed and I made a little money, had some fun and sold the amp too.

I have agonised over CD player purchases since they were invented. Wisely, I bought cheap and often, through the early years and only more recently have gone up-market as quality up-sampling types have become affordable. I settled for a fire-sale priced Musical Fidelity A5 "Toob" job eventually and am generally satisfied with the straight audio but that manufacturer's reliability problems are sadly still with them.

Hugh
Naksa: A generous and considerate offer. I have not speculated here or elsewhere on its undoubtedly fine musical qualities. Regrettably, I cannot take it up and I mean that quite sincerely. Thank you, nonetheless, for the courtesy.
 
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Not in the UK, Prof, too far and too costly. At least $USD400 round trip, assuming you would want the modules, not the finished product - which I don't make anyway.

Besides, what happens if you want one? It would be a very painful experience for you, judging by the AKSA experience.

Hugh

Hugh
You have mentioned in the past that you design your amps in such a way that the distortion has a specific profile and this is more significant than the total value of distortion. Speakers contain crossovers which alter the relationship between the harmonics with respect to time. How does this affect the profile?
 
Hello Ian and all others guys.

Here a bit how I gain my audio gears experiences and few things about audio.

I was initiated to high-end audio systems in the 80's, and since I listened (but did never buy because to costly) to a lot of very costly sound systems. I also have the chance to have many musicians friends, both in classical and jazz musics, so I ad many occasions to listen to live musics concerts, it's important to listen to live concerts once a wild.

In the 80's I was reading La Revue du Son and others audio magazines audio gears listening tests and later find out that many times they was just selling those audio gears using listening tests. But I've learn a lot about audio amps testing and thd spectrum from Jean Hiraga in La Revue du Son magazine, so there was some usefulls things in those magazines. There is some rare small audio magazines in the web are honest and reliables.

I agree that it's not always easy to explain a music listening experience of a amp, speakers or cd player and it's not all guys who ad listen to many amps, so in many forum you need to read a lot so to be sure that the listening experience of mister x or y guys are reliable. But you alway find guys that you can rely.

Since many years I go to the Montreal Audio Show, there I've eard amps costing up $150,000 , but only a handfull was deserving my attention, so there was somes amps who give me a true living and "toe taping" musical experience.

I remember the first time, many years ago, I eard a Musical Fidelity Nu Vista M3 integrate amp with Monitor Audio speakers, it was very nice sounding.

We have to use some common terms in audio like toe taping, open soundstage, fast amp, warm, etc... we just need to know which guys used them with honesty, experiences and knowledges.

Since the 80's I buy only used audio gears, and since about two years I design my own diy amps and modified all the used cd players I buy.

Now I use one of my diy amps, a modified Adcom GCD-600 cd player, Dynaudio speakers from a friend and a 25 years old Oracle turntable. And I also have an old Pioneer tube amp, a Radford HD-250 and few others recents audio gears and audio kits and somes "old audio gears".

The total of all my audio gears cost me less than a high-end amp that you see in most high-end audio stores.

Btw, I know Hugh since few years, his knowledge and experiences help me a lot and I've learn a lot from him, we should agree with him that an amps should give a true pleasure in listening experiences and he know how to design amps who give real blessing in musical listening experiences.

Bye

Gaetan
 
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Hugh
Are you serious about Halcro? More to the point, is anybody?

THD is one of a few technically meaningful and repeatable measurements that can be made on audio electronics. It simply establishes the limits to the fidelity of the electrical signal output to the electrical signal input of a device. In an abstract sense, its minimal level may be compared with maximum acceleration rates in motor vehicles. We may never have any real need for either quality in full measure but a poor performance of either will cripple the device utterly.

With AKSAs, you have elected to exploit rather than minimise residual distortion which is most evident in amplifiers, no? It seems odd then, that you don't revel in the resulting institutional opposition which, ironically, is your lifeblood. The unfortunate sneers from individuals here on the SS Forum are just the social backwash of such a standoff. This is a regrettable herd characteristic IMO of many who belong to associations, fan clubs etc. regardless of what qualifications they may have.

I stand by what I said about specmanship; in the wider public eye it's dead, man! With an audio world rapidly flooding with class D, H and chipamps, the need now to ignore THD as a worsening flaw is clearly more pressing. Only the institutional types are interested as, dear friend, are you. Very interested; to the point of using instruments to determine it and its spectral components like anyone else experimenting at an advanced level. Let us be honest in at least the basic issues of audio electronics on the bench.

Having said that, I trust you don't misinterpret this as provocative. I may disagree with some of your views and take you to task on their veracity but I agree wholeheartedly with your methodology, dedication to development, attitude as a manufacturer and preparedness to participate in Forums such as this one.. There are probably lots of other things to agree on too, like accelerating motor vehicles, but not here in Naksaland.
 
With an audio world rapidly flooding with class D, H and chipamps, the need now to ignore THD as a worsening flaw is clearly more pressing.

I don't know much about the audio world, but in the world of the 'most people' who spend money on music reproduction I don't actually think they pay ANY attention whatsoever to THD. Not one iota. I'm actually curious who it is that does pay attention to THD - it seems to me that this has become a bogeyman for people to rant over but I don't think it's real. I've only ever seen THD mentioned in some magazines. My opinion - nobody pays any attention to it. Those that choose hi-fi from magazines pay more attention to the review not the spec. Those that buy hi-fi from their local store pay attention to many other things including the brand name, the price, how good it looks, how many Watts it says on the lid, etc. Who pays attention to THD ?????

sorry for the OT, but it seems to be relevant from the perspective that NAKSA is not marketed based on it's THD performance and that to me, means Hugh is more up to date with his customer base than most others.
 
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THD is still included in the specification for most commercial audio equipment and I don't have any commercial audio products where it's not included. What the buyer makes of it is up to themselves.

The only time I look at THD numbers is when it's used with the power output such as 40W @ 10% THD vs 40W @ 1% THD vs 40W @ 0.1% THD etc. At least it gives some indication on the equipment's useful power output capabilites but unfortunately not how it sounds.

For all Hugh's amps I've built, the choice has been based on potential sound quality on offer and not on specifications other than the power rating at a given impedance which is important for me. For me on most occasions the potential sound was realised on completion of the build and burn in period.
 
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