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Old 8th February 2010, 07:15 AM   #41
AKSA is offline AKSA  Australia
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Frank,

You have made an 'interesting' debut......

What exactly are you trying to prove here? The triumph of scientific logic over human foible?

Kanwar,

Thank you for your post. We are flattered you are with us, guys, Kanwar is a brilliant young EE from India with a superb, creative mind, we have had many long discussions in the past and I welcome him here. I'm proud to say I agree with most of his technical ideas, too.

Ron,

Great to see you here, thanks for the nice post! I'm working on our mutual project today, slowly I'm getting there..... we are in the middle of a week long heatwave over 34C and I'm NOT enjoying it much!

More to follow.....

Hugh
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Last edited by AKSA; 8th February 2010 at 07:18 AM.
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Old 8th February 2010, 12:48 PM   #42
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Hugh,

Donít fret. Thereís no need to rush, Rome, similar in size, wasnít built in one day, under 34C conditions (working in which today would violate a plethora of EU labor laws). If youíre not enjoying the work, put it down, relax, the institute of Noetic Sciences warns us about these things

Iím somewhere between Florida and Turks & Caicos still pondering the question of where to post

Groetjes,
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Old 8th February 2010, 06:37 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Francec View Post
Philosophically, this is known a relativism, ie, where everyone's opinion is valid. Relativism is dangerous, absurd and indefensible.
Unless there are objective measures, everything is equal and that is clearly untrue. I'm with Leo and he has a right to be derisive of the unsustainable.

Human beings actively engage in self-deception and this thread is full of it.

Frank
Hello

That remember me that, more than an hundred years ago, the head of an european science academy said that there was no more discovery to do since everything was discovered. Science and measurements have their limit and there is still lot to learn.

In audio, there is guys who think that we can measure everything.

Ten years ago I was certain that the distortions measurements and slew rate say it all about an amps, a but after listening dozen of high-end amps since few years (valve and transistors), doing measurements and having hundred of amps schematics, I know that distortions measurements don't say everything and for two amps with same thd , spectrum, slew rate, etc, you will get one amp with a boring liveless sound and the other one will sound alive and with a 3d sound and colorless.

Bye

Gaetan

Last edited by gaetan8888; 8th February 2010 at 06:47 PM.
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Old 9th February 2010, 07:40 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by AKSA View Post
Kanwar,

Thank you for your post. We are flattered you are with us, guys, Kanwar is a brilliant young EE from India with a superb, creative mind, we have had many long discussions in the past and I welcome him here. I'm proud to say I agree with most of his technical ideas, too.

Hugh
Hello Major,

Thanxz for the nice words.
I hope in the future we will be having more of such long discussions too

Kanwar
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Old 11th February 2010, 06:41 AM   #45
Francec is offline Francec  Australia
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Quote:
Frank,

You have made an 'interesting' debut......

What exactly are you trying to prove here? The triumph of scientific logic over human foible?
Not as such, however, you said it yourself; liking the sound of a valve amp doesn't mean that it is objectively better, only that you like the sound. As soon as claims of superiority are made, the discussion moves from personal preference to objective evaluation. Most people are not prepared to admit that their senses are (extremely) fallible and that they engage in self-deception; it is, afterall, a prevailing human trait.
Science has given us what we now have and it is disengenuous of people to claim their senses are superior to the methods of evaluation that are available. Interestingly, when it is pointed out, instead of acceptance, (many) people become defensive and aggressive or resort to gems like this:
Quote:
That remember me that, more than an hundred years ago, the head of an european science academy said that there was no more discovery to do since everything was discovered. Science and measurements have their limit and there is still lot to learn.
Certainly, wax lyrically about things you prefer but please don't claim that you know better than what objective evidence can show otherwise.
I KNOW my perception differs over time and with mood and many other factors. That is why I will put on one CD and not another but I won't make claims that are based solely on what I like at a particular time.

Frank
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Old 11th February 2010, 07:04 AM   #46
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Hmmm,

Frankly, I think the aggression and defensiveness is all yours, though couched in intellectual terms..... you are saying that people are not seeing it right, that their self-deception urgently needs to be corrected. This is an interesting arrogance; given that no one knows anything about anyone else over the internet, you may be justified intellectually, but not morally.

This approach is far from relativism, it is a form of intellectual fascism. I am the first to realise that SQ is a matter of taste, much like food, or paintings, or music itself; but I cordially condemn any voice which insists that self-awareness or political/engineering correctness is a compulsory feature of all audio assessment.

Furthermore, I'd point out that:

1. Intelligence lies on a bell curve. The very bright owe the very stupid a debt of gratitude; there is a 1:1 mapping which is surely more than coincidence.
2. SQ is subjective, but musical enjoyment is very important, aye, veritably a part of life, to many people. Music is hardly an objective artform, could never be described as engineering. Presuming to draw attention to the audio preferences of others because they are 'objectively' deluded is bound to draw sharp criticism.


Welcome to our nightmare, Frank, but please, do behave......

Cheers,

Hugh
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Old 11th February 2010, 08:21 AM   #47
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Quote:
Frankly, I think the aggression and defensiveness is all yours, though couched in intellectual terms.
Then we disagree, while noting the inherent arrogance of your statement.
Quote:
This approach is far from relativism, it is a form of intellectual fascism.
Spoken as a true relativist.
Quote:
but please, do behave
Implying that I have misbehaved instead of making assertions that you haven't directly challenged. Making a reference to morality is indeed a strange notion; what it has to do with is beyond me.
The last two points, equally, defy my understanding. I understand the bell curve distribution but its use in this discussion and the reference to "more than a coincidence" is something that requires explanation.
Since you have used an ad hominem defence, though couched in passive language, means to me that any further postings are pointless. I understand your commercial imperative but I did expect less "playing the man".

Frank
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Old 12th February 2010, 07:09 PM   #48
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Hello Frank

If you plan to measure subtle differences in sound quality between power
amps, it takes much more than THD measurements and a spectrum analysing of a static sine wave test signal as this will not reveal the most important property of an amps: Dynamic response to complex signals like a recording of an orchestra with many different musical instruments being played at the same time, producing highly complex harmonics patterns.

Without an engaging and musical sound an amps are just not good enough. Despite all those personal tastes maters a good amp are a good sounding amp and not the one with the best measurements result.

You are welcome to give your opinions but please be polite and respectfull.

Bye

Gaetan
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Old 12th February 2010, 07:49 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gaetan8888 View Post

You are welcome to give your opinions but please be polite and respectfull.
Let me give this statement the force of a moderators warning

(it is Hugh's forum, any action would require his input)

dave
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Old 15th February 2010, 09:20 PM   #50
Francec is offline Francec  Australia
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Well, well, well,
The Milky Bar Kid turns up again.
Would the people who implore me to be "polite and respectful", please point out instances where I have not been. There is a vast difference between not liking what I've said and these claims, unless, of course, arbitrary censoring based soleley on opinions is to become a feature of this forum.
If anything, I've been objective and couched my statements in reasonable language. Where I have responded in slightly intemperate terms, it has been reflective of the language used in prior postings.
I know we live in bizarre politically correct times, but if anyone is "offended" by my choice of words and the opinion I am stating, I suggest the problem is theirs and demands for "respect" and politeness are excessive and border on ridiculous. If these forums don't foster robust discussion, what is the point of them existing?

Frank
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