Hi all, I am a long time lurker here, but now I have a plan that I would like to share.
All started when I (10 years ago) put a high quality audio system in a car. I was primarily concerned with sound quality and went the extra mile to built specific volume sealed speaker pods for the mids and installed the tweeters high enough and aligned properly to get as much of stage effect as I could. Coupled with a DSP, that was the best (and only to be honest) experience where I could identify with exceptional clarity the position of each instrument in the recording. The car is long gone, but I miss that experience.
I would like to do something similar but in my house now. The problem is that I don't have any friends into hi-fi that I could go and listen to, so I could compare different speaker styles and amplifier combinations to know where I should start. My plan then, is to make a few benchmark speakers. By benchmark I mean a representative speaker of the category -not the best -but a speaker that shows me in average, what that particular design is all about. I am not a purist, I will be using a MiniDSP w/ Room EQ and amplifying with a Yamaha A-S501. A Velodyne CH-600 subwoofer will be used if needed. I have a lot of interest in tubes and separates, but because of the investment necessary, that's something I'd pursue only in the future.
I am not rich so I can't spend $500 per design just to see what I like. My goal is to spend under $200 in drivers per set and I intend to build 3 styles. After I decide on one of the styles I will build a higher end ($600-800 in drivers) pair of speakers. The styles I intend to build (and I'm open to suggestions) are:
1- Single Speaker Full range horn loaded
2- Standard MT enclosure
3- OB - I am curious about this one and haven't researched much but I believe $200 will not be enough
I have researched a lot about the MT and probably will go with Amigas.
I'd like to ask for opinions on the full Range loaded horn. I am leaning towards the FH3 with Fostex FF105WK. I believe the main low side of the FF105WK is the 7 kHz peak that I don't care much since I'll room eq anyway. The ringing at high frequencies is something I want to actually listen to to see if it bothers me. It seems like a good starting point. I love to be wrong though, if there are suggestions on other drivers or even cabinets, please jump in and convince me. As I said, I don't want the best, I want something representative of what the design can do.
At first I thought going with a Zigmahornet and FE103En, but read about the lack of punch at around 100-150 Hz, I don't want to have the sub going so high. That might hide the capabilities of a larger drive in a BLH in the future. I also believe I'll need a tweeter on the BLH if I decide on this design as I am pretty sensitive to the highs and tend to prefer speakers with good quality tweeters a lot more than other people. I stepped up a bit to a FH3 for a deeper bass even though I'm losing a bit of high frequency quality (or so I think), since I can always install a tweeter in a double horn in the final design.
All started when I (10 years ago) put a high quality audio system in a car. I was primarily concerned with sound quality and went the extra mile to built specific volume sealed speaker pods for the mids and installed the tweeters high enough and aligned properly to get as much of stage effect as I could. Coupled with a DSP, that was the best (and only to be honest) experience where I could identify with exceptional clarity the position of each instrument in the recording. The car is long gone, but I miss that experience.
I would like to do something similar but in my house now. The problem is that I don't have any friends into hi-fi that I could go and listen to, so I could compare different speaker styles and amplifier combinations to know where I should start. My plan then, is to make a few benchmark speakers. By benchmark I mean a representative speaker of the category -not the best -but a speaker that shows me in average, what that particular design is all about. I am not a purist, I will be using a MiniDSP w/ Room EQ and amplifying with a Yamaha A-S501. A Velodyne CH-600 subwoofer will be used if needed. I have a lot of interest in tubes and separates, but because of the investment necessary, that's something I'd pursue only in the future.
I am not rich so I can't spend $500 per design just to see what I like. My goal is to spend under $200 in drivers per set and I intend to build 3 styles. After I decide on one of the styles I will build a higher end ($600-800 in drivers) pair of speakers. The styles I intend to build (and I'm open to suggestions) are:
1- Single Speaker Full range horn loaded
2- Standard MT enclosure
3- OB - I am curious about this one and haven't researched much but I believe $200 will not be enough
I have researched a lot about the MT and probably will go with Amigas.
I'd like to ask for opinions on the full Range loaded horn. I am leaning towards the FH3 with Fostex FF105WK. I believe the main low side of the FF105WK is the 7 kHz peak that I don't care much since I'll room eq anyway. The ringing at high frequencies is something I want to actually listen to to see if it bothers me. It seems like a good starting point. I love to be wrong though, if there are suggestions on other drivers or even cabinets, please jump in and convince me. As I said, I don't want the best, I want something representative of what the design can do.
At first I thought going with a Zigmahornet and FE103En, but read about the lack of punch at around 100-150 Hz, I don't want to have the sub going so high. That might hide the capabilities of a larger drive in a BLH in the future. I also believe I'll need a tweeter on the BLH if I decide on this design as I am pretty sensitive to the highs and tend to prefer speakers with good quality tweeters a lot more than other people. I stepped up a bit to a FH3 for a deeper bass even though I'm losing a bit of high frequency quality (or so I think), since I can always install a tweeter in a double horn in the final design.
If you don't have tinnitus, the ringing at 7k may not bother you at all.
The best overall driver for the FH3 is probably still the Mark Audio A7.3.
jeff
A few observations / bloviations:
Re the Zigmahornet - I heard a pair of those back in 2001 with the Merrill drivers, and they definitely did few things right for me.
I'd agree with Jeff that budget permitting, the A7.3 in FH3 would be a great first FR/BLH project - certainly an excellent exemplar of the class. To my ear the Alpair as much better low level detail and wider bandwidth than the FF105WK - but if you want to try the Fostex, the best I've heard that driver is in the Woden Vampyr.
Don't have any immediate suggestions for a starter MT
OBs are great in theory, but in practice I've found them not without shortcomings / room constraints - a factor not to be overlooked. Of course others will disagree.
Re the Zigmahornet - I heard a pair of those back in 2001 with the Merrill drivers, and they definitely did few things right for me.
I'd agree with Jeff that budget permitting, the A7.3 in FH3 would be a great first FR/BLH project - certainly an excellent exemplar of the class. To my ear the Alpair as much better low level detail and wider bandwidth than the FF105WK - but if you want to try the Fostex, the best I've heard that driver is in the Woden Vampyr.
Don't have any immediate suggestions for a starter MT
OBs are great in theory, but in practice I've found them not without shortcomings / room constraints - a factor not to be overlooked. Of course others will disagree.
OBs do have room size constraints, that they need a little bigger space to work their magic. So, they can't really be standing next to a wall, they need space. They also need larger drivers to push some meaningful bass.
But, it is possible to build and easy and cheap OB setup, as in this thread.
Fast, fun, Inexpensive OB project
But, it is possible to build and easy and cheap OB setup, as in this thread.
Fast, fun, Inexpensive OB project
1/ A7.3 is decidedly the performance leader for the FH3. A7 are $170/pr at Madisound. But also worth consider that Madisound also has the A10.3 still on sale for the same price. It would go into Frugel-Horn XL. A10.3 is really close to the A7.3 mid/top (that difference often buried before it comes out the amp) and in FHXL has decdely more bass extension and oomph. A bit more plywood and floor space.
The Pluvia 7 would be a lower cost alternative (and also see sone from having to rebate the baffle). Similar voicing as the 2 metal alpairs but not as high DDR.
We have only really listened to the FF105 after treatment — where it has more bass and almost the finesse of the FF85wk. Some extra steps beyound EnABLing them are to help tame that peak.
Some end users sre not bothered by the peak in the stock FF105. And some are driven nuts. It is good in the FH3 and in the Woden Vampr-V — a box specifically done to have the same sort of visual statement as the Zigmahornet, but give the end user a box that actually performs.
Our tarted up test build.
Any of the 3 Frugel-Horns are great horn builds.
2/ MT is Mid-Tweeter is it not. We don’t talk much about those on this forum. Lots of good standmount FR boxes.
3/ with OB you’ll blow much of your budget for big woofers. Or get Betsy or Visaton B200. The 1st might fit you budget, the B200 won’t (and need phase plugs)
dave
The thread pointed to have many happy builders using the GRS-15PF-8 at $30 each, plus TG9 at $17.
That's a total of $94 of drivers.
Add in the cost of the XO parts, at about $150 and you are close to your budget.
Or if you really want to shine, get the miniDSP HD at $200 (I know, we are going over budget but just giving some options) and you can play with XO curves and points to your heart's content!
... for something that looks like this (I know, it's not everybody's cup of mojo!)
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Yamaha A-S501 review | What Hi-Fi?
This is mainstream consumer gear. As such, you don't need to build things just to see what they do. You can visit a shop and hear lots of suitably priced gear.
I imagine 500-800 dollars on drivers, will sound terrible with this amp. They would be far too good for it. Showing up every poorly executed detail.
What do you listen to? It might be no use at all to you.
This is mainstream consumer gear. As such, you don't need to build things just to see what they do. You can visit a shop and hear lots of suitably priced gear.
I imagine 500-800 dollars on drivers, will sound terrible with this amp. They would be far too good for it. Showing up every poorly executed detail.
What do you listen to? It might be no use at all to you.
Interesting. I read very little on the A7.3. It looks like the searches always get skewed somehow (probably some "facebook timeline" effect on google?). anyway, after this I read a bunch about the A7.3 and might well be a suitable contender. Would you still rank it higher than the A10.3? As Planet10 said, they're on special and I really don't care for how big the box is.
Would you recommend the Vampyrs over the FH3/FHXL at all?
The room I'm using is about 13 x 25ft so I don't care for the extra size of the FHXL. It's hard for me to visualize what is a large or small room as people always say online, to me 13x25ft is not huge, but it is probably the size of most apartments in Japan. lol
Cool. yes, that brings me the doubt I just wrote about above. What's enough room for OBs? I have that 13x25 ft room almost empy. Unfortunately the ceiling is low, since it is a basement, but it is finished so the carpet is better than the the hardwood elsewhere in the house I assume.
1/ A7.3 is decidedly the performance leader for the FH3. A7 are $170/pr at Madisound. But also worth consider that Madisound also has the A10.3 still on sale for the same price. It would go into Frugel-Horn XL. A10.3 is really close to the A7.3 mid/top (that difference often buried before it comes out the amp) and in FHXL has decdely more bass extension and oomph. A bit more plywood and floor space.
The Pluvia 7 would be a lower cost alternative (and also see sone from having to rebate the baffle). Similar voicing as the 2 metal alpairs but not as high DDR.
We have only really listened to the FF105 after treatment — where it has more bass and almost the finesse of the FF85wk. Some extra steps beyound EnABLing them are to help tame that peak.
Some end users sre not bothered by the peak in the stock FF105. And some are driven nuts. It is good in the FH3 and in the Woden Vampr-V — a box specifically done to have the same sort of visual statement as the Zigmahornet, but give the end user a box that actually performs.
Our tarted up test build.
Any of the 3 Frugel-Horns are great horn builds.
2/ MT is Mid-Tweeter is it not. We don’t talk much about those on this forum. Lots of good standmount FR boxes.
3/ with OB you’ll blow much of your budget for big woofers. Or get Betsy or Visaton B200. The 1st might fit you budget, the B200 won’t (and need phase plugs)
dave
Thanks Dave! Is that a Rottie/German Shepperd mix? Beautiful lazy dog!! I have a Rottie myself.
The tip on the A10.3 sounds like the ticket! I'll probably pull the trigger in the next couple days after I settle down with some more reading.
The OB would be definitely the last design I'd build, and if the size of the room is enough for it. Let's see how it goes. Hard to hear through headphones but out of the three designs is the one I actually like the least on Youtube videos. It just sounds too interesting not to try.
The thread pointed to have many happy builders using the GRS-15PF-8 at $30 each, plus TG9 at $17.
That's a total of $94 of drivers.
Add in the cost of the XO parts, at about $150 and you are close to your budget.
Or if you really want to shine, get the miniDSP HD at $200 (I know, we are going over budget but just giving some options) and you can play with XO curves and points to your heart's content!
... for something that looks like this (I know, it's not everybody's cup of mojo!)
Thanks Perceval!
I really like how distinct the OBs look, that's most of my willing to try building a pair! lol
I'll get a miniDSP for sure. In my past on car audio I understood how magic it can be to be able to make all adjustments on the fly. It's easy and cheap to fine tune all to your taste. I'd need to biamp, but that's not a big deal.
I recently built the manzanita with the 12” peerless woofer and was very happy with the bass it produced. It sounds much better far from walls as Perceval said. Though I am also very happy with bass from the 10p so I probably don’t qualify as a bass head
Hey Silas,
What's far from the wall? I can arrange the position of the room as I please but either is too narrow or too short, I'm afraid.
Well, every other guy says that the most important thing are the speakers and the amps are well, there to compliment the speakers. Moreover, I have to start from somewhere and speakers are way way cheaper (even at $200 a pair) than a good amplifier. That should be self explanatory, but correct me if I'm wrong.
Once I'm done deciding on the speakers I'd definitely step up on amplifiers if I feel like that is the next step, for sure. I don't plan keeping an entry level amplifier forever. But remember, I'm not a purist (at least not yet), and I believe that time alignment and proper filtering and EQ for the room are more important than a excellent amplifier without any DSP. (And I bet most people would want to kill me when they read this). I'm not saying am exceptional amplifier is not worth. I wholeheartedly believe it is, but there is a priority list here. BTW, the review on whathifi is not even that bad. Mind you, I got this amplifier for $75, and the review was saying it was an OK amplifier for $500 (Dollars)! I will spend twice as much on DSP itself.
I listen to a variety of things, but mostly pretty complicated music like progressive metal, classical orchestra, guitar and piano (those last two not too complicated). I also listen to a lot of classic rock and progressive rock, big band and acid jazz. Acid jazz, like Jamiroquai is one of my favorite bands to listen on quality audio BTW.
Zaboo was a rescue dog and while we told some things when we picked her up they did not ring true. So we sent away for DNA My Dog and found out that she was near half Miniture Pincher crossed a Belgian Terverin, Chinese Sharpai, Bosten Terrier, Mutt cross.
Far too many people overemphasize the importance of speakers in a system It is a system and even modest reasonably decent loudspeakers are lifted up by very good electronics and source.
dave
GASCo,
OB will need some space from adjacent walls. 1.5m is good, 2m is better.
For the kind of music you listen, I think you will appreciate the MiniDSP HD unit ( get the HD, so you don't need to do the AD-DA conversion ).
With the unit, you will be able to use a higher point on the crossover and the Harsch curves XO. They will bring a lot of tightness to the music, transients will be clean and snappy.
Also, consider beefing up the full range driver. The TC9/TG9 is cute and very impressive drivers in their price range, but might run out of steam with your kind of music (unless you run 25 of them per array!)
With my setup, I have great joy listening to anything from big ensemble choirs to electronics music like Infected Mushroom (Dancing with Kadafi always brings a huge grin).
Finally, also consider adding room treatments, like bass traps in the corners and panels at first reflection points.
OB will need some space from adjacent walls. 1.5m is good, 2m is better.
For the kind of music you listen, I think you will appreciate the MiniDSP HD unit ( get the HD, so you don't need to do the AD-DA conversion ).
With the unit, you will be able to use a higher point on the crossover and the Harsch curves XO. They will bring a lot of tightness to the music, transients will be clean and snappy.
Also, consider beefing up the full range driver. The TC9/TG9 is cute and very impressive drivers in their price range, but might run out of steam with your kind of music (unless you run 25 of them per array!)
With my setup, I have great joy listening to anything from big ensemble choirs to electronics music like Infected Mushroom (Dancing with Kadafi always brings a huge grin).
Finally, also consider adding room treatments, like bass traps in the corners and panels at first reflection points.
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haha! She looks bigger than most of these breeds, but probably just the picture!
I think I was misunderstood. I don't think the amplifiers are not important. As you say, I understand it is a system and the weak link will drag the rest down. It is just that financially, I'd rather put money on the electronics later, because the investment is so much more money. And of course my plan will end up changing along the way as I learn more. I actually want to discuss amplifiers, but here is just not the right section.
I'll see what space I get available after I do some work on the basement. There is a ugly drywall cabinet for the hometheater that I will get down, and lots of boxes I need moved/rearranged. I want to have at least 2/3 of the space available. Will definitely do some DIY acoustic treatment.
To do the active XO, how would one do the amplification?
source>MiniDSP> 2 preamplifiers > 2 amplifiers? It sounds like a pain to adjust volume if you do it this way.
Pics are always nice! Thanks! The OB is the last one in priority right now but I am definitely interested to see.
If you want a good sounding system then one must consider the amp. Amplifiers are very important and can sound significantly different.
Do consider that amplifiers & speakers are a system and should not be considered separately. Trying to evaluate speakers without a good amp and front end will be limited by those, not the speaker. You will miss out on lots of what is important in a loudspeaker because that information will never get out of the amplifier.
A good amplifier need not be all that expensive. There are some very good, very cheap Class D & Class AB amps out there (and even more not-so-good ones). And things like Nelson Pass’ ACA are stunning value ($329 USD at the diyAudio store last i checked.
dave
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