OK. I'll tell about one I met.
David Hafler.
Later that year I went to CES and said I was exhibitor David Hafler and they gave me a badge to get in.If you are well known name and wealthy, they dont dare ask you for your drivers license/ID. I went to his suit/demo room and said hello and pointed to his name on my badge. He didnt blink an eye about it. Didn't care.
That was last time I saw him.
-Richard
Ha, love it! That's the kind of stuff life needs. There's more than one way to get away with something / win something... It doesn't all have to be jumping out of planes or other adrenaline pumps.
Harvey ‘Gizmo’ Rosenberg sure seemed to be a character.
Never had the pleasure while he was around.
I rarely hear his name pop up. Not sure why.
I really enjoyed reading his “meta-gizmo” ramblings.
The Original and True - Triode Guild
Perhaps some of the most honest marketing copy ever to grace audio?
TRIODE GUILD® T-SHIRTS AMPLIFIERS
Never had the pleasure while he was around.
I rarely hear his name pop up. Not sure why.
I really enjoyed reading his “meta-gizmo” ramblings.
The Original and True - Triode Guild
Perhaps some of the most honest marketing copy ever to grace audio?
TRIODE GUILD® T-SHIRTS AMPLIFIERS
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Later that year I went to CES and said I was exhibitor David Hafler and they gave me a badge to get in.
I went to CES about 6 years ago or so. I was in line to check a bag at the airport coming home and some guys started chatting with me. They said they were in audio and I made some joke about the high-end snake oil cable vendors in the Venetian. Turns out they were from a voodoo cable manufacturer
. We had a civil but unproductive conversation
.
Yes, then you can throw your shorts back to them.
It's funny our Midwest sales rep made a call on Prince's studio because one of the engineers liked our 8-legs. Prince actually showed up at the meeting with a bunch of his babes.
Yes. Thats why I told it. Here's another.
The Absolute Sound;
This has a broader appeal or interest, maybe, because for some it is usable information:
One thing I learned from David Hafler was to buy sub-assemblies - like loaded pcb - and just do final assembly. He only had 2 women build all the products... they went together so fast because they bought everything finished. Just some PS wires and I/O wires and power cord. Done.
The new owner of TAS was one Thomas B. Martin. A generous man if he liked you. He once offered at my home to help me write a business plan so I could get a loan. Anyway --- He was a founder of Dell computers. He was the marketing person behind Dell's success and when he sold his stock for about 100 million dollars, he went shopping. Owned furniture businesses and such diversity as TAS. He liked that mag and the writers. But HP was a poor business man and Thomas bought it from HP. Now Harry and Thomas had to come to grips about who was the boss and decided to have a meeting with HP and Thomas and Sallie Reynolds (Editor) at my house here where I still reside. This was to get the direction on changes Thomas wanted but HP had resisted. A show down. I was the meeting note taker. After that was finished... I talked to him about my PA design etc.
The part that matters here for DIYAudio -- is that he also told me... never go into manufacturing. Only do final assembly. Dont even do much design. Out source it and buy the PS from one place, computer PCB from another, chassis from somewhere else... shopping for best prices. You only do assembly in-house.
Sounded familiar. Hafler after the design was done, he just sourced everything from Japan and only did final assembly in-house.
There is your advice from 2 pretty successful business men. Ignore it at your own peril.
THx-RNMarsh
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All closely related to a lot that has gone on:
Only do what you are good at. Divest of everything that doesn't make money. Outsource and cut costs.
But, all too often it was: You don't have to be concerned with what the actual workers are paid or their working conditions.
At least employment is now picking up well, only thing is many higher paying jobs are gone and won't come back. Not clear it has been such a good thing overall for society.
We do both outsource and build in house.
Outsourcing is usually for items that we need lots of. Also, if the builds require lots of people as it would be hard to hire a few hundred people for two or three years the let them go.
The trade off is, we have to teach everybody so much and develop lots of QC.
Sometimes it's not bad, we have a local manu I used for coils, they were very very good.
For the really complex things, outsourcing is not possible. That is when having really good techs pays off. And, they are strong enough to make improvement suggestions, a real plus.
We did outsource some very complex objects that were supposed to be turnkey, that's why I've had to learn a new motion platform. All the vendors are too lean to have someone who has 40 years experience building with one's own hands, programming, testing. Instead, they typically have a physicist, an ME, an EE, a software guy, and some techs. As a result, it doesn't quite integrate well.
Jn
Outsourcing is usually for items that we need lots of. Also, if the builds require lots of people as it would be hard to hire a few hundred people for two or three years the let them go.
The trade off is, we have to teach everybody so much and develop lots of QC.
Sometimes it's not bad, we have a local manu I used for coils, they were very very good.
For the really complex things, outsourcing is not possible. That is when having really good techs pays off. And, they are strong enough to make improvement suggestions, a real plus.
We did outsource some very complex objects that were supposed to be turnkey, that's why I've had to learn a new motion platform. All the vendors are too lean to have someone who has 40 years experience building with one's own hands, programming, testing. Instead, they typically have a physicist, an ME, an EE, a software guy, and some techs. As a result, it doesn't quite integrate well.
Jn
All wise sum-up as usual.
In serious industry sectors (where safety concerns is the pivot point), what is been outsourced and to whom, is highly regulated.
Extend and kind of QC over the outside source from the OM is critical in terms of product /services outcome as well as on financial and legal burden.
For audio sector, the important point to consider is that whatever outsourcing performs, will reflect on the end product behavior, thus will build, retain or kill OM’s name on the market.
Outsource everything was and is a popular trend in management, implementation is not that pink and mellow.
Outsourcing - Wikipedia
George
You guys look at it slightly funny in some respects.
It's more like...
Should I buy all the equipment to say, manufacture enclosures if it'll only be running 10-25% of the time, when someone else can do runs of them and doesn't have much downtime. At first glance it may cost more to pay someone else, but that's questionable because you have to figure in investment, management, and whether it makes the most money to be spending your time doing it when you could work on something else. That last bit pertains to employees like Jn is talking about, whether a small team works on it for a few days and goes back to other stuff, or do you have to hire temps/have little to do for some employees most the time.
There are other questions, like at what point do you want to shield your IP even just a bit. So if you go surface mount, not much of a problem... If you go through hole you might have to think twice. Who does the cad work? And of coarse the whole in house or not question.
Can you get what you want from having other people manufacturer it? That is the primary reason a good number of audio places do more in house work than they want.
It's more like...
Should I buy all the equipment to say, manufacture enclosures if it'll only be running 10-25% of the time, when someone else can do runs of them and doesn't have much downtime. At first glance it may cost more to pay someone else, but that's questionable because you have to figure in investment, management, and whether it makes the most money to be spending your time doing it when you could work on something else. That last bit pertains to employees like Jn is talking about, whether a small team works on it for a few days and goes back to other stuff, or do you have to hire temps/have little to do for some employees most the time.
There are other questions, like at what point do you want to shield your IP even just a bit. So if you go surface mount, not much of a problem... If you go through hole you might have to think twice. Who does the cad work? And of coarse the whole in house or not question.
Can you get what you want from having other people manufacturer it? That is the primary reason a good number of audio places do more in house work than they want.
I think that most of you would be wasting your time making audio products for anyone but yourself. IF you don't make an extremely elegant circuit, and build it to the highest standards of construction, why bother? You will lose in the audio marketplace to people who with better funding can make the same thing (at least in quality level) cheaper, and perhaps better looking.
Of course, I can't and don't make all the products that I design, but when I cannot personally control production at almost every level, I will not make something memorable to audiophiles over time. My best work is to keep my reputation and personal satisfaction high, but the majority of my income comes from products that I only design the audio heart of the circuits on a computer, and advise everything else (if asked). These products will never be my 'best' but they do keep me from going broke.
Of course, this only makes sense to those of you out there that believe that there is a useful difference in audio electronics. Double blinders need not bother.
Of course, I can't and don't make all the products that I design, but when I cannot personally control production at almost every level, I will not make something memorable to audiophiles over time. My best work is to keep my reputation and personal satisfaction high, but the majority of my income comes from products that I only design the audio heart of the circuits on a computer, and advise everything else (if asked). These products will never be my 'best' but they do keep me from going broke.
Of course, this only makes sense to those of you out there that believe that there is a useful difference in audio electronics. Double blinders need not bother.
Many of the details for out-sourcing and only doing final assembly applies to intended volume.
However, a main reason to do so is that - as good as you think you are - no one is an expert in everything. You can find the 'best' power supply designs, best pcb layouts for computer, best this and best that and then assemble them all together.
'Best' covers a lot of territory ... reliability, heat/efficiency, cost, delivery time, fit/finish, specs etc. But you have the best chance to make the best product at lowest cost by shopping for 'best' individual components and doing only final assembly.
You leverage the expertise of the various specialist designers in each category.
THx-RNMarsh
However, a main reason to do so is that - as good as you think you are - no one is an expert in everything. You can find the 'best' power supply designs, best pcb layouts for computer, best this and best that and then assemble them all together.
'Best' covers a lot of territory ... reliability, heat/efficiency, cost, delivery time, fit/finish, specs etc. But you have the best chance to make the best product at lowest cost by shopping for 'best' individual components and doing only final assembly.
You leverage the expertise of the various specialist designers in each category.
THx-RNMarsh
Note the Jeff Tracey and Brains never had a problem with outsourcing, although Batman had some issues. Now being an escapee from aerospace there you have enforced outsourcing due to the funding and politics with one company being lead and integrator and many others supplying parts. The lead changed with each project as it was a limited club. Now admittedly a satellite is somewhat more complex than audio and FMEA takes up a lot of the development but it showed that shopping for 'best' only works if you are actually able to write a coherent specification and have at least one person on the team who knows nearly as much as the subby to keep them under control. Systems engineering is much maligned by the bench mob as being busy body paper pushers but there would be even more monumental mess ups without them.
I have a slightly unhinged but brilliant friend who actually has a pick and place +IR reflow in his garage. He found it was quicker and higher quality for prototyping.
I have a slightly unhinged but brilliant friend who actually has a pick and place +IR reflow in his garage. He found it was quicker and higher quality for prototyping.
somewhat true for extreme projects but not entirely ---- you know from reputation and from history that a company does best work or not.... or should know. MIL qualified sources and experience with source before and their reputation as leader in a particular field ETC, narrows the odds a lot to making a mistake in choice. In private business (non government related) you can sole source also without huge paper work of justification etal. The development process and its over head is simplified as well.
Incoming inspection and sample inspection can keep it honest.
For a small business or start-up, with limited finances, relying on subs and expertise of well healed companies reduces your time to market and your T&M over head, R&D overhead and employee staffing etc etc. In other words, you can get to market fast, produce in growing numbers without growing the overhead substantially and is more profitable.
THx-RNMarsh
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I think it is inherent that you have to bring something to the table. The mystery to me is why you are under the belief that it's as complicated as you do, once you can design something. I'm sure there are companies that don't make money but are busy polishing their TO-92 leads.
Personally I dislike your post JC, greatly. It seems abundantly clear that other people have very different experience than you. It seems every audio company tends to be a fair bit different when you are talking about the smaller ones than JBL or whatever. From what I can tell people with less skill than you have gone farther because they care. The world does not tend to treat others that want to kick back into no ambition mode very well - you've been afforded this luxury simply by being a pretty smart man in a limited field.
Many of us are still enjoying the hobby, and would like to instill as much vigor as we can. I certainly hope not too many people read this thread because even if a young person like me isn't chased away, the negativity doesn't help - I can only imagine how other people view the legend JC saying "RUN AWAY, AT THE VERY LEAST YOU ARE TOO DUMB."
OS, I was reacting to the general banter here over the last few days, with people offering all kinds of input. I know that much of what was put up earlier was misleading to people who really want to do something useful.
I mean, why build something that you can easily buy, even used, if necessary, and easily get the same quality that you are going to put your effort into?
I had to start from scratch, 25 years ago, when my entire apartment was destroyed in a firestorm. I did not even own a Vendetta phono stage, for several years, but I started with inexpensive cables and a Grado phono cartridge, with a donated turntable, and then bought USED audio equipment, including tube amps (Dyna Mk4's), speakers (Wilson WATT 1's), STAX headphones with tube driver, and a small set of used vinyl records. I could not afford new quality audio either, and USED was a good way to go. Of course, at first, people loaned me stuff that I gave back, but over a decade or so, I replaced my connecting cables with better ones, built my own Vendetta/Blowtorch, and got some Parasound power amps. I know that if I had not design them, I would have bought used equivalents. Admittedly I have some advantages by designing my own electronics, but honestly I can't even afford my own designs at retail prices, so I don't expect anyone else to, either, except for those who have 6 figure jobs, and/or some extra cash.
It is a real problem when you outsource potentially quality audio designs, and that is what I am worrying about here.
I mean, why build something that you can easily buy, even used, if necessary, and easily get the same quality that you are going to put your effort into?
I had to start from scratch, 25 years ago, when my entire apartment was destroyed in a firestorm. I did not even own a Vendetta phono stage, for several years, but I started with inexpensive cables and a Grado phono cartridge, with a donated turntable, and then bought USED audio equipment, including tube amps (Dyna Mk4's), speakers (Wilson WATT 1's), STAX headphones with tube driver, and a small set of used vinyl records. I could not afford new quality audio either, and USED was a good way to go. Of course, at first, people loaned me stuff that I gave back, but over a decade or so, I replaced my connecting cables with better ones, built my own Vendetta/Blowtorch, and got some Parasound power amps. I know that if I had not design them, I would have bought used equivalents. Admittedly I have some advantages by designing my own electronics, but honestly I can't even afford my own designs at retail prices, so I don't expect anyone else to, either, except for those who have 6 figure jobs, and/or some extra cash.
It is a real problem when you outsource potentially quality audio designs, and that is what I am worrying about here.
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