Test LP group buy

[udok]

The upshot is that there remain significant performance improvement opportunities in vinyl playback, even after multiple decades comprising an era of development.

LD

You mean a modern CD-Player or better a solid state based DAC?

(Sorry, could not resist )

 

[scott wurcer]

Does track position or linear speed have any useful information?

I still want to see a left, right, vertical, lateral, sequence for geometric alignment. Does the track position matter to get the overhang right?

 

[luckythedog]

You mean a modern CD-Player or better a solid state based DAC?

(Sorry, could not resist )

No, I mean a vinyl-era mastering engineer over a CD-era one.

(Sorry, could not resist)

LD

 

[luckythedog]

OK, I'll post another list, this one more sparse. Please add to it what you would like see on the test LP. Once we get a long list, we can start paring down and deciding on track order.

In no particular order:

Full range sweep @5cm/sec
3150Hz Speed, wow+flutter
1kHz Reference level 5cm/sec
Left identification
Right identification
Pink Noise
Rotating phase
Crosstalk test
Silent Groove for Rumble (maybe locked)
Low frequency sweep for cart & arm resonance

This is seriously going badly, backwards even, partly because no-one seems to read or compile content within posts.

I'm happy enough to post a candidate track list, but methinks I'm wasting my time here?

LD

 

[luckythedog]

Sorry guys, I smell a rat and don't like this or where it's going. If you want/need a 3150Hz test record suggest go make one, but I'm out.

LD

 

[Pano]

Sorry, LD I don't know what you mean. What is the harm in including a 3150Hz track? Isn't that what you use in your software?

You've done stellar work here, and I've tried to incorporate your requests in the former track lisst, and asked that you add the one you want, if you don't see them here. The list in post 644 above is there for that very reason - to give you a place to add the tracks you want to a basic stater list. It's not difficult, either copy the list with your additions, or simply make a list of what you want, and it will get added to the list.

Where is that rat in that?

 

[Pano]

A new list with Scott's requests.

In no particular order:

Full range sweep @5cm/sec
3150Hz Speed, wow+flutter
1kHz Reference level 5cm/sec
Left identification
Right identification
Pink Noise
Rotating phase
Crosstalk test
Silent Groove for Rumble (maybe locked)
Low frequency sweep for cart & arm resonance
Left Only (what signal?)
Right Only
L+R
L-R

 

[nezbleu]

I still want to see a left, right, vertical, lateral, sequence for geometric alignment. Does the track position matter to get the overhang right?

Well there are two nulls on the record where the cantilever should be tangential to the groove. Yhe closer you get to those, the more "right" the overhang is. Of course the location of those nulls is pretty hard to predict, there are multiple alignment geometries (Stevenson, Lofgren, Baerwald, etc) and different effective arm lengths may place those in slightly different locations (or am I wrong about that?). Still you could get pretty close by avoiding the outside edge, the inner groove area, and some space in the middle.

 

[nezbleu]

Hi Pano,
Please add another 3150 track near the last tracks so speed and W&F can be checked at the beginning and end of an LP.

What is your thinking there? Unlike CD's the rotational velocity of a turntable platter does not change with arm position, there is no attempt at conmstant linear velocity.

 

[scott wurcer]

Where is that rat in that?

There has to more to this than I can see.

 

[anatech]

Hi luckythedog,
I'm completely mystified as to your objection over a track that is easily skipped. There are tracks being requested that I don't care about, maybe that will change once I learn more about how to setup a turntable. But I see no reason to take offence with my request. Maybe let me know what the problem is and I'll agree with you. Right now I see a valid use for a piece of test equipment. Possibly the RTX or a sound card can be set up to do the same thing with a different frequency?

Now, you are an expert in the field. Could you propose a track list that would be useful? I'm serious. You're the ideal person to do this.

-Chris

 

[anatech]

Hi nezbleu,

Unlike CD's the rotational velocity of a turntable platter does not change with arm position, there is no attempt at conmstant linear velocity.

True, however the LP is certainly more at risk of turning at the wrong angular velocity, and that velocity may change from start to finish depending on how much drag there is on the system. There is also a component of speed variations known as wow & flutter. Including a track or two for this purpose allows the use of a piece of equipment designed to indicate slow and fast speed variations.

With a CD player, wow & flutter is practically nil once the information has been clocked out of memory. Large scale mechanical wow & flutter could create data under and overruns to the short term memory used for eliminating this effect. This is in fact something I have personally seen and fixed in many CD players. The use of a normal W&F meter is a complete waste. They do however make a meter to measure the "flutter" of the eye pattern in a CD player.

-Chris

 

[lcsaszar]

A new list with Scott's requests.

In no particular order:

Full range sweep @5cm/sec
3150Hz Speed, wow+flutter
1kHz Reference level 5cm/sec
Left identification
Right identification
Pink Noise
Rotating phase
Crosstalk test
Silent Groove for Rumble (maybe locked)
Low frequency sweep for cart & arm resonance
Left Only (what signal?)
Right Only
L+R
L-R

I collected the posts with suggested track list. I think they can be consolidated now.

Posts:

67
196
209
228
531
584
638
647

 

[luckythedog]

Here's my 2p worth of track list suggestions, which I think covers all discussion so far, except for basic checks like channel sense and phase, and a music track which can easily go on the end of sides 1 and 2. Also missing is a stylus wear check test, which I think would be a great idea to discuss ideas for.

Side 1:

1kHz 5cm/s 0dB ref tone 20s
Silent groove 3mins
20Hz - 50 Khz sweep mono -54dB RIAA 1.5 mins
20Hz - 50 Khz sweep mono -36dB RIAA 1.5 mins
20Hz - 25 khZ sweep mono -24dB RIAA 1.5 mins
20Hz - 15 kHz sweep mono -12dB RIAA 1.5 mins
20Hz - 50 Khz sweep left -36dB RIAA 1.5 mins
20Hz - 15 kHz sweep left -12dB RIAA 1.5 mins
20Hz - 50 Khz sweep right -36dB RIAA 1.5 mins
20Hz - 15 kHz sweep right -12dB RIAA 1.5 mins
Pink noise mono 0 to 50kHz knee 20Hz -12dB 2 mins
White noise mono 0 to 50kHz knee 20Hz -24dB 2 mins

Total 13 mins 20s

Side 2

1kHz 5cm/s 0dB ref tone 20s
3150Hz @ -12dB 1min
400Hz/4kHz 4:1 -10dB vertical (L+R=0) 1.5 mins
400Hz/4kHz 4:1 +12dB lateral (L-R=0) 1.5mins
Groove angle/slew lateral rate test 50um : 15 deg 15s
Groove angle/slew lateral rate test 50um : 20 deg 15s
Groove angle/slew rate test 50um : 25 deg 15s
Groove angle/slew rate test 50um : 30 deg 15s
Groove angle/slew rate test 50um : 35 deg 15s
Groove angle/slew rate test 50um : 40 deg 15s

100Hz 50um compliance test 1 min

300Hz @ +12dB wear test lock groove x 3
8kHz @ -6dB wear test lock groove x 3
16kHz @ -18dB wear test lock groove x 3

Triangle/ grooveshape curvature acceleration test 50um 20 deg 500G 15s
Triangle/ grooveshape curvature acceleration test 50um 20 deg 600G 15s
Triangle/ grooveshape curvature acceleration test 50um 20 deg 700G 15s
Triangle/ grooveshape curvature acceleration test 50um 20 deg 800G 15s
Triangle/ grooveshape curvature acceleration test 50um 20 deg 900G 15s
Triangle/ grooveshape curvature acceleration test 50um 20 deg 1000G 15s

300Hz repetition 10khz tone burst acceleration test at -6dB 30s

Low frequency burst sweep cart/arm resonance test lateral 1 min
Low frequency burst sweep cart/arm resonance test vertical 1 min

Click impulse stimulus test cart/arm resonance lateral 15s
Click impulse stimulus test cart/arm resonance vertical 15s

1kHz +/-0.55Hz @ 0dB (L,R) rotating vector test 30s

10kHz @ -18dB left crosstalk/azimuth test 15s
10kHz @ -18dB right crosstalk/azimuth test 15s

1kHz @ +12dB mono stylus drag test 30s
Silent groove 30s

Total time: 15mins 30​

As already posted several times, now a cause of personal frustration: the devil's in the detail of the tracks and tests, and in the precision of mastering of production. I don't see the point of dumbing down or just duplicating stuff that already exists or rushing to produce something half baked. Nor using standard production houses whose process won't allow these tests to be accurately transcribed. As George posted, documentation about the tests is key to success and usefulness.

HTH!

LD

 

[luckythedog]

Hi luckythedog,
I'm completely mystified as to your objection over a track that is easily skipped.

That's not my objection, anatech. Nothing to do with your posts at all. What I don't understand is the apparent rush to get something done, even if it ignores half the posts here, duplicates existing records, and isn't useful or produceable in any event Can't think of a good reason so............

LD

 

[lcsaszar]

Here's my 2p worth of track list suggestions

May I recommend to request higher spacing between tracks (if total space permits)? Also let's consider to have the pitch control computer turned off - pros? cons?

 

[kaputt]

Would it make sense to have a separate thread that ONLY holds the current track list without discussion about it? For the sake of easily finding it?

 

[simon7000]

Don't take it personally L but we even disagree on addition.

 

[Pano]

Well finally! See, that wasn't so hard, was it?

As already posted several times, now a cause of personal frustration:

Obviously a point of frustration for you, but until now haven't proposed a list of tracks. I've posted a couple of times, trying to incorporate what was asked for, but it never got very far.

the devil's in the detail of the tracks and tests, and in the precision of mastering of production.

Agreed, and both Kaputt and I have been in contact with mastering engineers to ask question and evaluate the answers. It's not as easy as it seems, the responses don't come quickly as most of them are swamped with work.

I don't see the point of dumbing down or just duplicating stuff that already exists or rushing to produce something half baked.

There hasn't been any dumbing down. There has been an attempt to establish a basic, useful track list. IMO, there are certain tracks a test LP must have, some of which you've included on your list. And so far, there has been no rush and not a lot of progress. We can either make a test LP, or let this turn into another "Beyond the Ariel" thread. There isn't a deadline, but it would be nice to have a test LP before the year 2027.

Nor using standard production houses whose process won't allow these tests to be accurately transcribed.

The suggestions and recommendations for mastering houses have been pretty thin. I've reached out to GZ in Prague, Kaputt has contacts in Berlin. Unless someone has an "in" with a high quality mastering house, we are left to find them on our own by asking questions and trying to get a feel of what they are willing and able to do. Establishing a list of what we want is a huge help in asking the mastering engineers what is possible.

As George posted, documentation about the tests is key to success and usefulness.

Yes it is important and George is not the only one who has said so, it's been mentioned several times. The existance of this thread, the open posting of the test files and online documentation will make this a more useful tool than most.

 

[6L6]

We can either make a test LP, or let this turn into another "Beyond the Ariel" thread.

As an original builder of the non-simplified, first drawing Ariels, I have a deeper understanding of that than most!!!!!!!

It is an incredibly interesting, lucid, and informed thread, but there is not a better of paralysis by analysis anywhere on this forum.