Greetings to everyone,
I would like to have some help in choosing a Horn to pair with compression drivers.
So long ago I bought a Faital HF146, considering its extension and smooth emission, wanting to use it in listening indoors, at home not with high volumes, but making the most of the dynamics for a more realistic result. The range of usage would be directed at medium high frequencies 800/18000 Hz and with a wide angle of emission, but above all, the highest emission neutrality possible so as to have no less coloration and nasality than very often can be with this type of object . I would have identified two possible candidates for that purpose, RCF HF96 and B & C sp ME90. Unfortunately I have never had the opportunity to listen to them and so I find myself without the necessary experience to make a winning choice. I hope someone gives me a hand to blow this jar and if there are other types of horns more suitable for this, please suggest me. I would like to thank you in advance for any kind of advice and renew greetings to all those who will read me. Bye.
Mleod
I would like to have some help in choosing a Horn to pair with compression drivers.
So long ago I bought a Faital HF146, considering its extension and smooth emission, wanting to use it in listening indoors, at home not with high volumes, but making the most of the dynamics for a more realistic result. The range of usage would be directed at medium high frequencies 800/18000 Hz and with a wide angle of emission, but above all, the highest emission neutrality possible so as to have no less coloration and nasality than very often can be with this type of object . I would have identified two possible candidates for that purpose, RCF HF96 and B & C sp ME90. Unfortunately I have never had the opportunity to listen to them and so I find myself without the necessary experience to make a winning choice. I hope someone gives me a hand to blow this jar and if there are other types of horns more suitable for this, please suggest me. I would like to thank you in advance for any kind of advice and renew greetings to all those who will read me. Bye.
Mleod
I use the HF146 on an Eighteensound XT1446, crossed at 650 Hz. It sounds very smooth and non-hornlike. But maybe the pattern is too narrow for you with 60x40 degrees.
I do not have any experience with these RCF and B&C horns. But I was also wondering myself how they might sound. But it looks as if they rely on diffraction at least to some degree.
regards
Charles
I do not have any experience with these RCF and B&C horns. But I was also wondering myself how they might sound. But it looks as if they rely on diffraction at least to some degree.
regards
Charles
1464, http://www.eighteensound.com/Portals/0/PDFs/XT1464.PDF
Yes,
In small (mine is 20 sq. m) w\o acoustic treatment room 60° nominal coverage may be [at least] harmless
Plastic is thin but price is about €40..
have you considered experimenting with a Karlson K-Tube? You can build them with paper and tape in minutes and they are virtually free and sound excellent in the near field. I like to use the double cutaway version. I don't use any tilt I run them at ear level parallel to the floor aimed at my head so I can see straight down each tube. They produce superb stage and image. You will never have a driver to tube mismatch as with so many horns the tube fits each driver you roll one for perfectly.
Hello Phase_Accurate,
Thanks for the suggestion, I would like, if possible, to give me more details about it
Using the HF146 with horn xt1464. Ok cross frequency of 650 hz (interesting) but what kind of filtering use (active or passive) and with what slope of the filter (6,12,24 ... db) and my curiosity if using equalization ... and if so How, how much? I'm particularly interested in why I could get the xt1464 but I see it as a trumpet long and it makes me think that it can introduce unwanted resonances for the benefit of a gain that is not what I would like to get. But if you tell me it works and give me more details maybe I can try the experiment .... Thanks anyway. Hello
Mleod
Thanks for the suggestion, I would like, if possible, to give me more details about it
Using the HF146 with horn xt1464. Ok cross frequency of 650 hz (interesting) but what kind of filtering use (active or passive) and with what slope of the filter (6,12,24 ... db) and my curiosity if using equalization ... and if so How, how much? I'm particularly interested in why I could get the xt1464 but I see it as a trumpet long and it makes me think that it can introduce unwanted resonances for the benefit of a gain that is not what I would like to get. But if you tell me it works and give me more details maybe I can try the experiment .... Thanks anyway. Hello
Mleod
Kenpeter made some really excellent looking k-tubes. Here is his photo of both a single and a double cutaway k-tube in PVC plastic tube.
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Hi Mleod
The first experiments I made were using an acoustic approximation of a special asymmetrical active crossover with very low group-delay distortion. I will also test a transient-"perfect" constant voltage crossover and compare both. My setup is a large MTM (I know 650 Hz is a little high to cross an MTM with 2x15") which has some benefits for using special crossovers like that. The natural delay from the horn is also beneficial to the use of such crossovers. I do my testing with a DSP evaluation kit using Sigma Studio. Once I have settled for a crossover topology I will build it as analog active hardware.
Because the speakers are in my workshop it is not very practical to always take the notebook there in order to get the crossover up and running. Therefore I do sometimes play background music with an old analog active crossover of mine (textbook BW3) that does not give high-quality playback but which is sufficient for the task. When l leave the room tempoorarily I always crank in order to break in the drivers. Even at loud levels the HF146 doesn't sound stressed crossed-over at 500Hz BW3.
I will have a look at the DSP configuration in order to find the EQ settings that I used on the horn combination.
I hope I will find some time during Autumn to perform outside measurements and improve the crossover function.
@djk:
I have heard/read many times that the 18 Sound would be better than the Faital for this kind of application. Since I haven't used both I would like to know whether the difference is only due to the top-end dispersion other are there other big differences as well ? The Faital is somewhat smalller and might not load the driver equally well below 1kHz. But is there something else that is important ? There are some nice designs like the Cornscala D using it so it might at least not be unsuitable. And it looks nicer than the 18Sound .....
Regards
Charles
The first experiments I made were using an acoustic approximation of a special asymmetrical active crossover with very low group-delay distortion. I will also test a transient-"perfect" constant voltage crossover and compare both. My setup is a large MTM (I know 650 Hz is a little high to cross an MTM with 2x15") which has some benefits for using special crossovers like that. The natural delay from the horn is also beneficial to the use of such crossovers. I do my testing with a DSP evaluation kit using Sigma Studio. Once I have settled for a crossover topology I will build it as analog active hardware.
Because the speakers are in my workshop it is not very practical to always take the notebook there in order to get the crossover up and running. Therefore I do sometimes play background music with an old analog active crossover of mine (textbook BW3) that does not give high-quality playback but which is sufficient for the task. When l leave the room tempoorarily I always crank in order to break in the drivers. Even at loud levels the HF146 doesn't sound stressed crossed-over at 500Hz BW3.
I will have a look at the DSP configuration in order to find the EQ settings that I used on the horn combination.
I hope I will find some time during Autumn to perform outside measurements and improve the crossover function.
@djk:
I have heard/read many times that the 18 Sound would be better than the Faital for this kind of application. Since I haven't used both I would like to know whether the difference is only due to the top-end dispersion other are there other big differences as well ? The Faital is somewhat smalller and might not load the driver equally well below 1kHz. But is there something else that is important ? There are some nice designs like the Cornscala D using it so it might at least not be unsuitable. And it looks nicer than the 18Sound .....
Regards
Charles
I tried and tried with the K-Tubes and got nothing but bad results. How anyone can get those things to work is a mystery to me.
By looking at the things I'd say K tubes get their dispersion purely because of diffraction and these days we understand that diffraction is not good.
That is my take on them anyway.
I like K-tubes for 1" format drivers - very smooth - self-EQ-ing pattern - "holographic" treble - nothing low in F as no gain and will get ragged. Make them ~5.3" long, half ellipse slot with ~1/8" initial gap at the throat section - tilt upward if slot facing "down" - tilt down if slot facing "up".
Thanks for the many interventions,
However I would remain doubtful in principle with regard to Horn length, I believe in my limited experience that even though this XT1464 horn may be more suitable for better sound reproduction than Faital in home systems as suggested by you, it is characterized by a Length too long and therefore may be more exposed to the megaphone effect. I did some empirical experiment with a funnel and a bowl and other objects, and came to the conclusion that for a less colorful reproduction the horns will need to have a very fast growth factor and therefore can not be overly long. Conversely, if you are looking for the greatest gain possible then the slow growth and hence longer length of the horn will be the right choice at the expense of acoustic cleaning. That's why my attention fell to the B & C ME90 and RCF HF96, and with no specific experience I asked for clarifications to someone who used them, what results they got, maybe in union with the HF146 driver. Also I have made these tests with a simple capacitor as a 6db / oct filter to protect different values for various cutting frequencies and without a woofer in search of the purest possible result in the substance and subsequently intervene with any corrections And refinements by joining the second path of the middle bass. I hope I have not expressed misleading or misleading concepts, I'm just a curious experimenter and I'm sorry that now if what I said is wrong. Thanks and greetings to everyone.
Hello Phase_Accurate,
Thanks again for the clarifications you sent me, surely I will not neglect the passage you have shown me, will be taken very seriously
P.S. As far as Karlson K-Tube is concerned I will try to experiment, I find in principle the limits related to the possibility of covering a range of frequencies so wide 800-18000Hz with regular dispersion and sound pressure .... nevertheless never say never, we will try .
Mleod
However I would remain doubtful in principle with regard to Horn length, I believe in my limited experience that even though this XT1464 horn may be more suitable for better sound reproduction than Faital in home systems as suggested by you, it is characterized by a Length too long and therefore may be more exposed to the megaphone effect. I did some empirical experiment with a funnel and a bowl and other objects, and came to the conclusion that for a less colorful reproduction the horns will need to have a very fast growth factor and therefore can not be overly long. Conversely, if you are looking for the greatest gain possible then the slow growth and hence longer length of the horn will be the right choice at the expense of acoustic cleaning. That's why my attention fell to the B & C ME90 and RCF HF96, and with no specific experience I asked for clarifications to someone who used them, what results they got, maybe in union with the HF146 driver. Also I have made these tests with a simple capacitor as a 6db / oct filter to protect different values for various cutting frequencies and without a woofer in search of the purest possible result in the substance and subsequently intervene with any corrections And refinements by joining the second path of the middle bass. I hope I have not expressed misleading or misleading concepts, I'm just a curious experimenter and I'm sorry that now if what I said is wrong. Thanks and greetings to everyone.
Hello Phase_Accurate,
Thanks again for the clarifications you sent me, surely I will not neglect the passage you have shown me, will be taken very seriously
P.S. As far as Karlson K-Tube is concerned I will try to experiment, I find in principle the limits related to the possibility of covering a range of frequencies so wide 800-18000Hz with regular dispersion and sound pressure .... nevertheless never say never, we will try .
Mleod
As far as I can tell a short tube on a compression driver sounds as it does because of diffraction.
On a K tube you'd get the same sound with different dispersion.
Yes. The $ almost doubling with shipping cost
and size is about parcel limit..
While I was also thinking that the Beyma TD385 might be one of the options to be considered with hf96 and me90 by virtue of my considerations, but still have not found any support or experience, so I would like those who can give me suggestions on how to intervene. However, the suggestion of JBL 365359-001 has given me some interest and although I have not been able to understand the depth dimension of this subject and very few technical features, to understand how much this tool can fit my reasoning, but I believe It can be fine. I realized, however, as Flaesh said, the availability in my country and I think in Europe is also nothing more than simple, so I will try to go further in this direction, and even in this area if anyone could suggest me, I would be grateful. Greetings to everyone.
Mleod
Mleod
Hi Mleod
I understand your concern about longish horns probably sounding honky. But sometimes conclusions from purely subjective visual impressions can be misleading.
All the horns that you suggest are using diffraction to some degree which is a known source of horn-honk.
While mine do definitely not have the most clean and linear FR yet (what you can hear in this vid is after about 1.5 hours of wiring up, and crossover measuring and tuning) the do definitely not sound honky:
mtm test1 - YouTube
The ones that you can see laying on the ground and being abused as stands, and which are using the (in)famous JBL combination 2426/2344, do indeed have some horn honk. But still this combination is quite sought after nowadays.
Regards
Charles
I understand your concern about longish horns probably sounding honky. But sometimes conclusions from purely subjective visual impressions can be misleading.
All the horns that you suggest are using diffraction to some degree which is a known source of horn-honk.
While mine do definitely not have the most clean and linear FR yet (what you can hear in this vid is after about 1.5 hours of wiring up, and crossover measuring and tuning) the do definitely not sound honky:
mtm test1 - YouTube
The ones that you can see laying on the ground and being abused as stands, and which are using the (in)famous JBL combination 2426/2344, do indeed have some horn honk. But still this combination is quite sought after nowadays.
Regards
Charles
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