Fixing the Stereo Phantom Center

Yes, single mic, where my head would otherwise be.

Please let me know if I'm missing some important test feature. I don't want to inadvertently post misleading information.

B.

Probably you had microphone positioned right in the middle which is fine for either L or R and L+R, but we don't have a ear in middle of head so do as plasnu mention offset microphone relative to center out to the left or right side 10cm or so.
 
Yes, single mic, where my head would otherwise be.

Please let me know if I'm missing some important test feature. I don't want to inadvertently post misleading information.

B.

Look for the exact sweet spot. Where both impulses line up. Now move the microphone to the left by half the size from your left ear to the right ear.
So if your head measures 17 cm between both ears, move the mic half of that (8.5 cm) to the left. A Google search claims averaged head sizes to be between ~6 and 7 inches. Others report: 17, 18 cm (close enough).

Now record the sweep with both speakers playing, so left and right speaker, using that new mic position. The only thing missing is the head shading and your own head size.
 
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Yes, single mic, where my head would otherwise be.
OK, thanks. Without early reflection, and with the speakers 60 degrees apart, we should be seeing the notches predicted in the paper and post a few pages back. I don't know why you aren't getting them, but you can see that left and right don't quite add up as you might expect them to in you mono measurement. Maybe reflections? Maybe phase?

If you download the files from my google drive, you can listen for the effect yourself.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B...l2Z2l4eURpNzlBU0luS25qUzY2blgxRVBfOFZVUjdrbTQ
Each file has a normal and a shuffled version. Listen for any change in tonality as the voice moves across. If you do not hear it in the normal file, then the shuffled file should not make any difference.
 
I am thinking, while I wake up, is that when we listen, we are herring a combed effect when the live player moves to the side. But we are able to clearly here well focused image if room acoustics effect is low enough. I think the interesting think would be is to maintain that live feeling aspect. Tonal balance can change simply because you always get reflections mixing into your listening. Studies like these help to find the critical factors, and possible solutions. Possibly, we want to find a solution for center listening at a specific point where most examples use 30/30 deg speaker angle positioning, then listen at somewhat different seating to see what has changed in normal usage. But first, it is important to get a good feeling what we hear different when something is changed.
The advantage I have in taking listening tests is that I don't really mind if I am not hearing changes, whereas people with a lifetime in the audio industry might have a reputation they might want to preserve. In practice, it would be very interesting to do this kind of testing in an anonymous manner. Different people just have different ways of capturing different audio queues to help them distinguish differences. When we are able to find trends from these trails, them someone with the math skills can maybe find a solution.
Using earphones to represent a spacial image is possibly a more realistic way to expect a realistic spacial experience. At least from my own binaural recording experience, this really amazes me. Recently I backed a project on Kickstarter which offers the equivalent in video, two-eyes?, but they were not able to put stereo external mic input to the little device. But I would be interested in seeing the final product I get. I have long proposed to Apple to implement earphones with stereo recording capability, but up to now, no news about this capability even though the easy device connection part of it is implemented in the AirPods. The real vision is to share immersive video content along with binaural audio.


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Well there are a lot of variations on this theme, such as on ambiophonics. Dr. Edgar Choueiri used to be part of that group until he started some serious research into this matter. https://www.princeton.edu/3D3A/PureStereo/Pure_Stereo.html

They place speakers close together and have a barrier (either software or a real barrier) and try and get past this problem in another way. Lot's of threads on here spun off from that technique. Such as a single speaker for stereo utilising side walls etc.

I don't want a head in vice stereo. I want it to sound good near the sweet spot too. I would have build my speakers differently (focussed array for example) if I wanted a single sweet spot.

Due to time differences outside the sweet spot it will be near impossible to get a good fix using only 2 speakers. My current solution keeps me happy though, and gives me a very "live like" sound. Good in positions just outside the sweet spot, great in that sweet spot.

I prefer my speakers over headphones any day, even headphones with binaural content. The feel is as important as the hearing part to me.
 
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I would like to listen to different peoples systems when I travel to different locations. You get a good feeling how different people might perceive as the sound they prefer.

Using more speakers get unrealistic for home use. Theoretically, you only need four speakers to pinpoint location in 3D, at least this is true with gps, but the acoustics get extremely complicated. My vision is to be able to wear small glasses and immerse myself in a different world. Speakers can help generate the feel, but the spacial aspects of audio seems best done though earphones.


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Its not simple :D but in University 40 kilometers north of me they sound happy with realism and natural performance http://www.digitaltrends.com/cool-tech/sound-lab-replicate-any-acoustics/.
They claim this amazing sound lab can replicate the acoustics of any building that exists… or doesn’t.

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I would like to listen to different peoples systems when I travel to different locations. You get a good feeling how different people might perceive as the sound they prefer.

Using more speakers get unrealistic for home use. Theoretically, you only need four speakers to pinpoint location in 3D, at least this is true with gps, but the acoustics get extremely complicated. My vision is to be able to wear small glasses and immerse myself in a different world. Speakers can help generate the feel, but the spacial aspects of audio seems best done though earphones.


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If you're ever in this neighbourhood :).

I'm not yet convinced of these solutions that lock me away from having a family experience watching movies. Even if it means having to sit next to the sweet spot because my son found out about it's advantages. 3D TV isn't mature enough yet for me to invest in. I'd like to get a big screen to get the right visuals to what my speakers can bring, but so far I haven't been able to convince the missus yet.
 
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Well there are a lot of variations on this theme, such as on ambiophonics. Dr. Edgar Choueiri used to be part of that group until he started some serious research into this matter. https://www.princeton.edu/3D3A/PureStereo/Pure_Stereo.html



They place speakers close together and have a barrier (either software or a real barrier) and try and get past this problem in another way. Lot's of threads on here spun off from that technique. Such as a single speaker for stereo utilising side walls etc.



I don't want a head in vice stereo. I want it to sound good near the sweet spot too. I would have build my speakers differently (focussed array for example) if I wanted a single sweet spot.



Due to time differences outside the sweet spot it will be near impossible to get a good fix using only 2 speakers. My current solution keeps me happy though, and gives me a very "live like" sound. Good in positions just outside the sweet spot, great in that sweet spot.



I prefer my speakers over headphones any day, even headphones with binaural content. The feel is as important as the hearing part to me.

I do recall and AES paper that addresses radiation pattern for wide sweet spot. It is somewhere in my archives until I finally decide to focus on directivity control.



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Not as much as it changes from a single speaker to two speakers playing the same content.



I've made a new version of the counting file for you. There is a normal version and a shuffled version using my phase only shuffler V2. In the version posted 2 years ago, I had dropped the center channel by 6dB to give an even volume across left, phantom center, right. But after your comments, I ended up dropping the center by 7dB, because it seemed a better balance. 8dB was too much.



Have a listen and let me know. I will look for something with more continuous speech and have a try with that.

Listened to the new files. Now the center always seems to be lower level than the sides. I am wondering whether the filtering effects are playing with the loudness perception. The levels of the shuffled version was slightly more uniform than the normal pan, for both versions.


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I searched my HD for the S-curve papers... no luck. I remember that site linking some other documents, I might have used those links in my thread. I'll look tomorrow. Got to go now.

Thank you. I have a question about your current set up. When I see the step response with 2 speakers mesured at the ear position, I clearly see 2 peaks, one side is slightly delayed. The barrier makes the second peak lower, but it can't make the peak completely dessapear. I wonder how you step response looks with your current solution.
 
Maybe, in a "by ear" sort of way. Nothing I've read so far in documents about mastering and EQ mention the dull phantom center at all. Not even close. I'll keep reading.

That's my experience as well. Over the decades I've facilitated the dissemination of, at minimum, hundreds of thousands of hours of cold voice it's never been a considered factor. Most producers I work with today struggle with the conceptual fundamentals of compression, never mind HRTF.
 
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Listened to the new files. Now the center always seems to be lower level than the sides.
You really should not be hearing level differences. I've checked this on headphones, the center is certainly not lower than the sides.

What you could be hearing is the tonal shift. If your system is revealing the comb notches, then the center will sound darker than the sides. That could be mistaken for a volume level change. Well, it is a volume change because some frequencies are missing. But it's more tonality change than volume. Listen again if you can. What are you hearing?
 
You really should not be hearing level differences. I've checked this on headphones, the center is certainly not lower than the sides.



What you could be hearing is the tonal shift. If your system is revealing the comb notches, then the center will sound darker than the sides. That could be mistaken for a volume level change. Well, it is a volume change because some frequencies are missing. But it's more tonality change than volume. Listen again if you can. What are you hearing?

The center in the new files all sound more rounded, but in the old files, the sides sound more rounded. The new files still seem like a three position pan, only the number of counts are now three per position change. Normally I would think the positions would be gradually shifted, but this is not what I hear.




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The counting is not a sliding pan, it's hard left right and center. So yes, you are hearing it correctly.

Did you listen to any of these?
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B...l2Z2l4eURpNzlBU0luS25qUzY2blgxRVBfOFZVUjdrbTQ
Those are smoothly sliding pans and may be easier to use. They should also give you a good sense of how well voices move on your system. I'd say try the Normal files before the shuffled versions.
 
I was playing with some VST plugins, the binaural one was interesting, using the RR test track where Keith moves from side to side, the tone and level of the voice seemed more constant. But it also made my imbalanced hearing more obvious. These plugins are are going to be interesting to play with.


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