Hey guys,
Long time lurker and first time poster. I have built a few speakers based on info I've gleaned from this site.
I'd like to move up to a larger floor standing 3 way system if possible. A subwoofer will not be used. I am worried about room size and listening position for a 3 way system in a smaller room.
Thanks for any suggestions you guys may have for me!
Here are my constraints:
Room size - small to medium
These speakers will go in the spare bedroom at whatever place I happen to be living at. I move a lot, unfortunately. I live in the US. Currently, the spare bedroom is 4.3m x 4m. (14x10ft)
Listening distance
As such, the listening distance will be ~1m rather than 2m+ suggested by Zaph for his 3.5 way design.
Source content - solely music
My wife and I have quite varied tastes and it's safe to say that any genre will be played back on these speakers. Lately there has been a preference for electronic music with some lower bass frequencies.
Bass extension
I'd like to hit 40hz with some authority. I would like to avoid BR designs on the woofer. I have other BR speakers and am fairly stubborn on this point. I would like to see how a sealed or aperiodic bass design can improve music listening.
Enclosure design
Unfortunately, my wife is not fond of the look of open baffle systems. The room size probably makes them prohibitive anyway.
However, between us both, I'm confident that we can build just about any other enclosure design. Size is not really an issue, either, as long as it can fit through standard doorways.
I do not want to buy an enclosure.
Crossover level - hobbyist
I have a busy life right now and enjoy making speaker enclosures. My wife is an artist and likes to help and paint them. However, while I understand principles in electronics and could probably make a crossover, I have no urge to try and design my own. I'd prefer not even building my own, but I will if it is necessary for best results. I simply have a lot of other things I need/want to do.
Amplifier
I have 250 wpc rms at my disposal.
Budget - flexible
I'm no stranger to DIY stuff in many areas. So I know budgets are made to be broken. However, I think the hard limit is ~500 USD for drivers and crossover (and plans, if applicable). Lower is better, but I would like these speakers to play music with authority and fidelity. I won't even bother thinking about enclosure costs. That part will cost what it will cost.
Proven
My money is hard earned, and I'd rather not spend it on something that at least a few people have vetted. But I'm sure this is a given.
Long time lurker and first time poster. I have built a few speakers based on info I've gleaned from this site.
I'd like to move up to a larger floor standing 3 way system if possible. A subwoofer will not be used. I am worried about room size and listening position for a 3 way system in a smaller room.
Thanks for any suggestions you guys may have for me!
Here are my constraints:
Room size - small to medium
These speakers will go in the spare bedroom at whatever place I happen to be living at. I move a lot, unfortunately. I live in the US. Currently, the spare bedroom is 4.3m x 4m. (14x10ft)
Listening distance
As such, the listening distance will be ~1m rather than 2m+ suggested by Zaph for his 3.5 way design.
Source content - solely music
My wife and I have quite varied tastes and it's safe to say that any genre will be played back on these speakers. Lately there has been a preference for electronic music with some lower bass frequencies.
Bass extension
I'd like to hit 40hz with some authority. I would like to avoid BR designs on the woofer. I have other BR speakers and am fairly stubborn on this point. I would like to see how a sealed or aperiodic bass design can improve music listening.
Enclosure design
Unfortunately, my wife is not fond of the look of open baffle systems. The room size probably makes them prohibitive anyway.
However, between us both, I'm confident that we can build just about any other enclosure design. Size is not really an issue, either, as long as it can fit through standard doorways.
I do not want to buy an enclosure.
Crossover level - hobbyist
I have a busy life right now and enjoy making speaker enclosures. My wife is an artist and likes to help and paint them. However, while I understand principles in electronics and could probably make a crossover, I have no urge to try and design my own. I'd prefer not even building my own, but I will if it is necessary for best results. I simply have a lot of other things I need/want to do.
Amplifier
I have 250 wpc rms at my disposal.
Budget - flexible
I'm no stranger to DIY stuff in many areas. So I know budgets are made to be broken. However, I think the hard limit is ~500 USD for drivers and crossover (and plans, if applicable). Lower is better, but I would like these speakers to play music with authority and fidelity. I won't even bother thinking about enclosure costs. That part will cost what it will cost.
Proven
My money is hard earned, and I'd rather not spend it on something that at least a few people have vetted. But I'm sure this is a given.
Check these out, hits 40hz, can be placed against a wall, should be good for short listening distaces thanks to low crossover and a wideband driver. Speaker Design Works
Kit at Madisound, drivers and crossovers, sell for $569
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c...stics-full-range-with-bass-assist-tower-pair/
Kit at Madisound, drivers and crossovers, sell for $569
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c...stics-full-range-with-bass-assist-tower-pair/
TM-W with 6.5" SB_Acoustics SB17NRXC35-8 and 1.1" SB29RDC dome tweeter in sealed 0.5cuft, plus 12" SB34NRX75-6 woofer in sealed 4cuft. ~$370/side for speakers and crossover parts
There are several TM builds with the SB-Acoustics 6.5" midbass SB17NRXC35-8 and 1.1" dome tweeter SB29RDC put into a 0.5 to 0.7cuft SEALED cabinet with -F3 ~70Hz. The Mandolin by Jeff Bagby is just one "proof of excellence". There are several different proven crossovers for this TM combination which are optimized for different baffle shapes: 10" wide; 14" wide; truncated pyramid low diffraction; etc... T+M+crossover ~$150/side
-F3 of 40Hz in a sealed box typically uses a 15" LOW efficiency subwoofer ... with bi-amps.
but
The $172 SB_Acoustics 12" SB34NRX75-6 with an Fs of 19Hz is designed for sealed woofer operation, and models to -F3 ~ 36Hz in a 4cuft sealed volume. Since the crossover will start at -F3 ~80Hz, this 12" woofer can also be mounted on the side of a narrow cabinet if a narrow front baffle is desired. ZAPH uses this woofer in a ported cabinet, and you can build in a ported option...just include a screw-in port cap. A LR2 crossover using a series_L and shunt_C is commonly used, and it is easy to simulate LC values which best match your room placement. Most speakers benefit from baffle step tuning for a specific listening room/position.
In a ported cabinet, an $80 Dayton 12" DS315-8 woofer will produce -F3 ~35Hz in 2.2cuft PORTED volume. This TMW would meet your $250/speaker for drivers + crossover goal.
There are several TM builds with the SB-Acoustics 6.5" midbass SB17NRXC35-8 and 1.1" dome tweeter SB29RDC put into a 0.5 to 0.7cuft SEALED cabinet with -F3 ~70Hz. The Mandolin by Jeff Bagby is just one "proof of excellence". There are several different proven crossovers for this TM combination which are optimized for different baffle shapes: 10" wide; 14" wide; truncated pyramid low diffraction; etc... T+M+crossover ~$150/side
-F3 of 40Hz in a sealed box typically uses a 15" LOW efficiency subwoofer ... with bi-amps.
but
The $172 SB_Acoustics 12" SB34NRX75-6 with an Fs of 19Hz is designed for sealed woofer operation, and models to -F3 ~ 36Hz in a 4cuft sealed volume. Since the crossover will start at -F3 ~80Hz, this 12" woofer can also be mounted on the side of a narrow cabinet if a narrow front baffle is desired. ZAPH uses this woofer in a ported cabinet, and you can build in a ported option...just include a screw-in port cap. A LR2 crossover using a series_L and shunt_C is commonly used, and it is easy to simulate LC values which best match your room placement. Most speakers benefit from baffle step tuning for a specific listening room/position.
In a ported cabinet, an $80 Dayton 12" DS315-8 woofer will produce -F3 ~35Hz in 2.2cuft PORTED volume. This TMW would meet your $250/speaker for drivers + crossover goal.
IMHO it's time to rethink at your constraints, because they are excluding each others. Especially the listening distance, as a big speakes need big space, if you still want to listen at 1m, your best speaker will be a small 2 way, with or without a sub depending on the amount of bass you want.
A SS 15W should offer satisfying bass in a small sealed enclosure, see for an example at zaphaudio.com.
Ralf
A SS 15W should offer satisfying bass in a small sealed enclosure, see for an example at zaphaudio.com.
Ralf
What went wrong with the kits from this forum that you are not satisfied with right now? Maybe we could mod it to your liking. People usually dislike ported systems that have a unit with too high of a Qts in a too small of a room. A mistake often not recognized. A really good sounding BR box needs a lower Qt driver tuned to a lower frequency. So I have realized thus far.
Therein is the issue with vented boxs, or rather not with the boxes, but with the designer. Vented boxes typically need a moderately damped alignment to work well in most practical rooms. Unfortunately a lot are designed for a maximally flat alignment, which doesn't do their reputation any favours.
Re aperiodic, the Seas A26 kit provides that (or at least a leaky sealed box, since aperiodic cabinets usually aren't aperiodic
). SEAS A26 Kit Very simple, not excessively sized, 10in high quality driver + an equally high quality 1 1/2in tweeter.
Remember there is a reason why Zaph notes minimum listening distances for his larger speakers: it's because almost all large 3 way speakers require a minimum listening distance for proper summing, and are therefore designed assuming that distance or more. There is nothing you, I or anyone else can do about that, assuming 'conventional' driver types: it is the laws of physics that dictate it. The only way you can get around it (to a point) is to shunt the XO right down, which rather obviates the purpose of a 3-way in the first place. A quality midbass partnered with a quality wideband driver crossed at 500Hz or so could do the job. Dave of Planet10 has several designs like that, but unfortunately he is currently out of action due to a medical condition. Tony Gee has something similar on his website, and while I don't personally care for all the design choices, it may serve as some inspiration. Humble Homemade Hifi - Fast One
Re aperiodic, the Seas A26 kit provides that (or at least a leaky sealed box, since aperiodic cabinets usually aren't aperiodic
). SEAS A26 Kit Very simple, not excessively sized, 10in high quality driver + an equally high quality 1 1/2in tweeter. Remember there is a reason why Zaph notes minimum listening distances for his larger speakers: it's because almost all large 3 way speakers require a minimum listening distance for proper summing, and are therefore designed assuming that distance or more. There is nothing you, I or anyone else can do about that, assuming 'conventional' driver types: it is the laws of physics that dictate it. The only way you can get around it (to a point) is to shunt the XO right down, which rather obviates the purpose of a 3-way in the first place. A quality midbass partnered with a quality wideband driver crossed at 500Hz or so could do the job. Dave of Planet10 has several designs like that, but unfortunately he is currently out of action due to a medical condition. Tony Gee has something similar on his website, and while I don't personally care for all the design choices, it may serve as some inspiration. Humble Homemade Hifi - Fast One
Thank you LineSournce, giralfino, Lozjek and Scottmoose! This is the type of information I was looking for.
@LineSournce - Do you have links to these designs? Or a suggestion on how I can search them up? Bi-amping is ok with me.
@giralfino - That's why I posted! Thank you.
@Lozjek - I was unable to find anything on the forums. As far as disliking BR for that: My DIY BR sub is designed and constructed well and never chuffs. But I also know the limits of BR design and realize what a lower Q could do for critical music listening. I have no problems with BR in my home theatre for movie and TV purposes.
@Scottmoose - " (or at least a leaky sealed box, since aperiodic cabinets usually aren't aperiodic
). " Cute, haha. I'm well aware.
I was under the impression that you could get decreased sum distance with decreased ctc distance and staggered drivers to help compensate for time alignment? But like I said, I'm no expert.
I will take a look at Dave's stuff, but as mentioned earlier, I'd rather stay away from drawing inspiration and being stuck with the need for a custom crossover.
Again, thank you everyone. I feel like this is starting to become closer to a reality.
@LineSournce - Do you have links to these designs? Or a suggestion on how I can search them up? Bi-amping is ok with me.
@giralfino - That's why I posted! Thank you.
@Lozjek - I was unable to find anything on the forums. As far as disliking BR for that: My DIY BR sub is designed and constructed well and never chuffs. But I also know the limits of BR design and realize what a lower Q could do for critical music listening. I have no problems with BR in my home theatre for movie and TV purposes.
@Scottmoose - " (or at least a leaky sealed box, since aperiodic cabinets usually aren't aperiodic
I was under the impression that you could get decreased sum distance with decreased ctc distance and staggered drivers to help compensate for time alignment? But like I said, I'm no expert.
I will take a look at Dave's stuff, but as mentioned earlier, I'd rather stay away from drawing inspiration and being stuck with the need for a custom crossover.
Again, thank you everyone. I feel like this is starting to become closer to a reality.
Only to a point. Ultimately the laws of physics kick in, and they do so quickly when it comes to large speakers. You want a big speaker? You need to sit a reasonable distance from it. 1m won't cut it, the drivers are too far apart. The Seas 2-way would just about do the job, as would Tony's humblehomemadehifi design that I linked to -the latter is a kit & comes with drivers & crossover. If you really are desperate to build something large that won't work as a nearfield monitor, Troels has plenty of excellent 3-way designs on his site, some of which are TL based rather than reflex, and come as kits from Jantzen Audio. This is an example: Jenzen-Illuminator
The thing is that since this is in the spare bedroom, I would like people to be able to listen to them from the bed as well, laying down. That would be more than 2m away.
However, the nearfield listening is a must.
Okay.
I will take a hard look at 2 way designs. Do I need to find a design that has subwoofer integration in the crossover? I feel like that would work best.
The SEAS speakers you linked look amazing. I'm not sure how subwoofer integration would work without going active, though.
How does summing work in the nearfield for MTM designs? Are those out too?
However, the nearfield listening is a must.
Okay.
I will take a hard look at 2 way designs. Do I need to find a design that has subwoofer integration in the crossover? I feel like that would work best.
The SEAS speakers you linked look amazing. I'm not sure how subwoofer integration would work without going active, though.
How does summing work in the nearfield for MTM designs? Are those out too?
I'm ready for subs now, haha. The question is just how to implement them without going active. If that's the case, I may as well go active right away.
My source will be streaming audio from Spotify Premium over Bluetooth 4.0 and other streaming services.
Meaning I can't just plug in subs into the sub spot on the back of my receiver, because there is no receiver.
Thanks for the mention of the Bagby Continuum though, looks like a great design! I'm reading about it right now.
My source will be streaming audio from Spotify Premium over Bluetooth 4.0 and other streaming services.
Meaning I can't just plug in subs into the sub spot on the back of my receiver, because there is no receiver.
Thanks for the mention of the Bagby Continuum though, looks like a great design! I'm reading about it right now.
I'd look seriously at something along the lines of Tony's Fast One- although it would be nice to not get so spendy on the XO parts. Of course when you start crossing over below the more standard range of between 1200-2500 Hz, the simple laws of physics as Scott would say makes it hard to avoid parts values for passive XOs that can cost more than the drivers in some cases - particularly if you follow the Joe Rasmussen approach and use conjugate network traps as well as higher order bandpass filters.
Scott mentioned designs by Dave at P10 - I've built several of his FASTs over the past few years -starting with "Tysen" - Fostex FF85K and CSS SDX7.
Another couple of nice combinations are Alpair 7.3 or Fostex FF85 / 105 WK crossed over in the 300hz range to midwoofers of your choice (Silver Flutes offer some excellent bang for the buck there).
If still available, GR Research has some very high performance for the money kits in their X series - particularly the XLS, for which a floorstander design is available
X-LS Classic kit
Scott mentioned designs by Dave at P10 - I've built several of his FASTs over the past few years -starting with "Tysen" - Fostex FF85K and CSS SDX7.
Another couple of nice combinations are Alpair 7.3 or Fostex FF85 / 105 WK crossed over in the 300hz range to midwoofers of your choice (Silver Flutes offer some excellent bang for the buck there).
If still available, GR Research has some very high performance for the money kits in their X series - particularly the XLS, for which a floorstander design is available
X-LS Classic kit
Go here:
Fullrange Loudspeakers. DIY Loudspeakers. Loudspeaker kits. Audio Nirvana, Lowther, Fostex. Vacuum Tube Amplifiers For Sale
Buy! an 8" and use his box or suggestions.
Are there Better speakers ?? Always ! Fact of life.
But these Will put a smile on your face with a minimum of hand wringing.
Fullrange Loudspeakers. DIY Loudspeakers. Loudspeaker kits. Audio Nirvana, Lowther, Fostex. Vacuum Tube Amplifiers For Sale
Buy! an 8" and use his box or suggestions.
Are there Better speakers ?? Always ! Fact of life.
But these Will put a smile on your face with a minimum of hand wringing.
I read a bit more about the Bagby Continuum. While it looks good for simple vocals and small jazz, it has a lack of baffle step compensation that makes for less than ideal playback of more complex arrangements.
I'm looking for more of an all-rounder than that.
@chrisb - I actually have a set of FF85wk speakers already made that I absolutely enjoy nearfield. But the wife has sentimental attachment to the enclosures and doesn't want me to take the drivers out, haha.
I spent a bit of time checking out the X series from GR research. They look great. It looks like they had some sort of sub-augmentation setup at one point, but the design is no longer available. I'm unsure how to proceed from this point.
Am I understanding correctly that a TM+sub has no problem nearfield because the lowpass to the sub is much lower than in a 3 way?
How about MTM speakers? Thoughts on them for my situation? The desk is very large in the spare bedroom so listening position could be as much as 1.7m or so.
@Bare - Thank you, but I already have some full rangers for the PC downstairs. They are nice, but I'm not interested in building a larger speaker around the compromise of one full range driver.
I'm looking for more of an all-rounder than that.
@chrisb - I actually have a set of FF85wk speakers already made that I absolutely enjoy nearfield. But the wife has sentimental attachment to the enclosures and doesn't want me to take the drivers out, haha.
I spent a bit of time checking out the X series from GR research. They look great. It looks like they had some sort of sub-augmentation setup at one point, but the design is no longer available. I'm unsure how to proceed from this point.
Am I understanding correctly that a TM+sub has no problem nearfield because the lowpass to the sub is much lower than in a 3 way?
How about MTM speakers? Thoughts on them for my situation? The desk is very large in the spare bedroom so listening position could be as much as 1.7m or so.
@Bare - Thank you, but I already have some full rangers for the PC downstairs. They are nice, but I'm not interested in building a larger speaker around the compromise of one full range driver.
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